[tccrockets] Re: Roll Control

From: Steve Ainsworth <SAinsworth@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "'tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:40:22 +0000
James
Yes, it is a canard system.  The first picture shows counter rotating  roll 
fins located near the CG and Yaw-Pitch fins forward.  This is the 2.5” airframe 
VTS system flown at TCC (IMG 6440).  This system is self-contained and has a 
downward looking video camera.
I flew a 4” airframe system using CO2 cold gas thrusters (CGT) at Blackrock, 
and a system using counter rotating long burn Aerotech boost glide rocket 
motors at Blackrock.

Steve Ainsworth | BEN|EN
D  916.771.6154 | E  sainsworth@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sainsworth@xxxxxxxxxx>

From: tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
[mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Dougherty
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 12:56 PM
To: TCC chat
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: Roll Control

Sorry, I meant Dennis :-)

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:56 PM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Yes, great points David ... there was an article I read about this recently 
that was related. I think Steve's system is a canard wing system
and doesn't use a Reac wheel or CMG ... but let's see what Steve says ...

On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Dennis Yeh 
<dennismyeh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dennismyeh@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Airflow around a cylinder (transverse) at higher reynolds numbers (larger 
diameter, lower altitude, or faster crossflow) causes a von karman vortex 
street - these are alternating vortices shed around the cylinder.  This 
shouldn't cause a sustained roll.

The spinning effect mentioned is the magnus effect - if a cylinder or sphere in 
crossflow is already spinning, it experienced lift.  A ball thrown spinning 
backwards gets positive lift, a ball thrown spinning forwards experienced 
downward (negative) lift.  A ship was once sailed across an ocean demonstraing 
this effect - it had no sails but used two cylinders spinning horizontally.

The rail buttons have a minor effect, but I would imagine fin misalignment to 
have a much bigger effect since they are aerodynamic surfaces providing a much 
larger lift vector tangentially to the rocket - the buttons have a much smaller 
profile and mainly produce drag axially (unless the wake from the buttons is 
interfering with the airflow to the fins significantly)

How does the vertical trajectory system control the rocket?  Since you're 
offering for anyone to fly it, I assume it's using an internal reaction wheel?

-Dennis
On Mar 24, 2015 5:44 PM, "Steve Ainsworth" 
<SAinsworth@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:SAinsworth@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

The Vertical Trajectory system as flown at TCC uses a horizon sensor for yaw 
and pitch and a solid state compass for roll.  All control is through the Basic 
Stamp, which just supervises the operation, turns things on/off and sets 
sensitivity.  It is set up in a 2.5" airframe.  Let me know if you would like 
to fly it.  There was another, VERY COOL project flown at TCC that used roll 
control fins but I am not sure of the status.  I think is was a 4" airframe 
with lots of electronics.  Much more sophisticated than mine.  I do have some 
on-board video of several flights.



Steve A

________________________________
From: tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
[tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] on 
behalf of Rob Diehl [rwdiehl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:rwdiehl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:51 AM
To: tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
Fin alignment would be a big factor as would beveling.  But the rail buttons or 
any other protrusion could cause some (or counteract it) spin.

If I recall correctly, the airflow around the tube wants to spin.  I cant 
remember  if it is coriolis force or some other, but there was an article about 
a guy making a multi tube rocket (scale Shuttle?) and was having issues with 
the rocket disassembling on ascent.  Longitudinal fences corrected the issue.

Some of my videos have the rocket stay stable, then spin one direction, then 
spin the other direction.  My camera was taped to the rocket and I highly doubt 
it was done symmetrically.  I assume air pressures pushing around the nose cone 
at different speeds interacted with the airframe and appendages at different 
points.

I remember the roll stability project.  I cannot remember his name though.  I 
thought he was using a STAMP processor for that.

I am just working on getting them up and down again, in the correct number of 
pieces.  Active stabilization is above my pay grade at this point.

Rob

________________________________
From: Chris Attebery 
<chrisattebery1971@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:chrisattebery1971@xxxxxxxxx>>
To: tccrockets <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:47 AM
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch

My theories have ranged from fin misalignment to inconsistent fin beveling to 
the way the cameras were mounted.
My DoorKnob only rotated about 90 degrees before apogee at October Skies. The 
tube was pre-slotted and I used a router table to shape the edges of the fins. 
Was it preparation or just dumb luck?
My TRA Level 2 Flight - 10/18/2014: http://youtu.be/ahpt81EWN40

On Mar 24, 2015 6:22 AM, "Richard King" 
<drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I watched all of Dave’s flights and subsequent videos.  What struck me was how 
little roll I noticed on the flights (Nice fin alignment!).  However, even when 
the flights are that straight and with minimum roll, there is still the 
“spinning movie” effect on ascent.  Not as bad as most that can leave one with 
motion sickness....   I was just wondering how many people have specifically 
made a rocket with major anti-roll attributes?  I recall one guy a few years 
back (sorry I don’t recall your name, but wore an official looking white jump 
suit) that was running experiments – one of which was anti-roll.  Just thinking 
how cool it would be to see a video without any roll.  I’m not trying to set 
the bar higher for others who video their flights.  All the videos are great.  
I’m just wondering if some are working on that particular issue.

RK



From: aaron hagadorn<mailto:hagadornclassics@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 10:03 PM
To: tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch

Wish I could have been there but prior event took priority sorry guys. Cleaning 
party is a must and then prep for DA2015.
On Mar 23, 2015 1:12 PM, "Ben Sandoval" 
<yobenflstf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:yobenflstf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Great job to everyone who pitched in, wished I could have made it. David nice 
video as always.


On Monday, March 23, 2015 8:21 AM, Jimmy Franco 
<Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx<mailto:Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx>> wrote:

Nice David,

I always enjoy watching your videos.

Jimmy F.
TRA 12524

From: James Dougherty<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 7:31 AM
To: TCC chat<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch

Very cool! Thanks David
-James

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:25 AM, David Robb 
<robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thanks all who LCO/RSO'd/setup/took down, I had a great time... while I didn't 
launch half as many time as the "Green Machine"... I got four up and back...
My Broken Arrow XP on an Aerotech L1040DM reached 10,157 ft.
Video of my flights....  https://youtu.be/h52qmImWxO4
==================
David M. Robb
robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
----- Original Message -----
From: James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>>
To: tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
Hey Folks,
Thanks for the great launch day yesterday! Special thanks to Richard King and
Jimmy Franco for hauling the trailers and PP.
Next month, we plan to have a cleaning party - stay tuned for details and thanks
again for everyone showing up and helping out - that's what makes a great club!
-James

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:19 PM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
NOTAM is hanging, we go live at 16Z
See you all tomorrow!

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:28 PM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Awesome! Thanks Mike
See you Saturday
-James

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2015, at 10:08 AM, Michael Gentile 
<smmike@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:smmike@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi all,
BAR will be on site for this Saturday's launch.  The wagon is full.  Even have 
some Madcow killer deals.
Should arrive by 8am.
Mike @ BAR
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:57 AM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Right on! Thanks Jimmy

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Jimmy F. 
<Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx<mailto:Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx>> wrote:
I'll stop and hook them up to my truck on the way
out.
Jimmy F.
TRA 12524
From:James Dougherty<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 10:01 PM
To:TCC chat<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
Hi Folks,
Can anyone haul the porta-potty out to the launch
site?
Thanks!
-James

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:01 PM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
NOTAM issued today.
Launch is a go for
Saturday!!!
-James

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:58 PM, James Dougherty 
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
You know it! See you with the V2 this weekend :-)

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Richard King 
<drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
While March may be an “off month launch,” the weather should be
superb!  For those thinking of flying high altitude, this may be the
best month to plan on doing so.
James, bring your V2 as is.  Mine isn’t finished either, but
let’s compare builds.

RK



From:James Dougherty<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 10:03 PM
To:TCC chat<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch

Hey Everybody,
I hope everyone is looking forward to the
launch this weekend;
Richard is hauling the trailer - we're go for
Saturday!

We got the porta-potties cleaned, if someone wants
to bring them
we can check them out and make sure they are in
good shape.

I plan to survey all the gear so we can have our cleaning
party
next month and get everything ready for DairyAire.
See you all on Saturday!
-James



On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:56 AM, James Dougherty
<jafrado@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Excellent! Thank you Richard
-James

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:16 AM, Richard King
<drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I should be available to haul the trailer.

RK



From:James Dougherty<mailto:jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 10:40 PM
To:TCC chat<mailto:tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [tccrockets] March Launch

Hey Folks,

Do we have any volunteers for trailer hauling this month?

-James


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References:
- [tccrockets] Re: Roll Control
  - From: Steve Ainsworth
- [tccrockets] Re: Roll Control
  - From: Dennis Yeh
- [tccrockets] Re: Roll Control
  - From: James Dougherty
- [tccrockets] Re: Roll Control
  - From: James Dougherty
[tccrockets] Re: Roll Control

Other related posts:
