[tccrockets] Re: Roll Control
- From: James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: TCC chat <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 12:56:17 -0700
Sorry, I meant Dennis :-)
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:56 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes, great points David ... there was an article I read about this
> recently that was related. I think Steve's system is a canard wing system
> and doesn't use a Reac wheel or CMG ... but let's see what Steve says ...
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Dennis Yeh <dennismyeh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Airflow around a cylinder (transverse) at higher reynolds numbers (larger
>> diameter, lower altitude, or faster crossflow) causes a von karman vortex
>> street - these are alternating vortices shed around the cylinder. This
>> shouldn't cause a sustained roll.
>>
>> The spinning effect mentioned is the magnus effect - if a cylinder or
>> sphere in crossflow is already spinning, it experienced lift. A ball
>> thrown spinning backwards gets positive lift, a ball thrown spinning
>> forwards experienced downward (negative) lift. A ship was once sailed
>> across an ocean demonstraing this effect - it had no sails but used two
>> cylinders spinning horizontally.
>>
>> The rail buttons have a minor effect, but I would imagine fin
>> misalignment to have a much bigger effect since they are aerodynamic
>> surfaces providing a much larger lift vector tangentially to the rocket -
>> the buttons have a much smaller profile and mainly produce drag axially
>> (unless the wake from the buttons is interfering with the airflow to the
>> fins significantly)
>>
>> How does the vertical trajectory system control the rocket? Since you're
>> offering for anyone to fly it, I assume it's using an internal reaction
>> wheel?
>>
>> -Dennis
>> On Mar 24, 2015 5:44 PM, "Steve Ainsworth" <SAinsworth@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> The Vertical Trajectory system as flown at TCC uses a horizon sensor
>>> for yaw and pitch and a solid state compass for roll. All control is
>>> through the Basic Stamp, which just supervises the operation, turns things
>>> on/off and sets sensitivity. It is set up in a 2.5" airframe. Let me know
>>> if you would like to fly it. There was another, VERY COOL project flown at
>>> TCC that used roll control fins but I am not sure of the status. I think
>>> is was a 4" airframe with lots of electronics. Much more sophisticated
>>> than mine. I do have some on-board video of several flights.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve A
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [tccrockets-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> on behalf of Rob Diehl [rwdiehl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:51 AM
>>> *To:* tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>>
>>> Fin alignment would be a big factor as would beveling. But the rail
>>> buttons or any other protrusion could cause some (or counteract it) spin.
>>>
>>> If I recall correctly, the airflow around the tube wants to spin. I
>>> cant remember if it is coriolis force or some other, but there was an
>>> article about a guy making a multi tube rocket (scale Shuttle?) and was
>>> having issues with the rocket disassembling on ascent. Longitudinal fences
>>> corrected the issue.
>>>
>>> Some of my videos have the rocket stay stable, then spin one direction,
>>> then spin the other direction. My camera was taped to the rocket and I
>>> highly doubt it was done symmetrically. I assume air pressures pushing
>>> around the nose cone at different speeds interacted with the airframe and
>>> appendages at different points.
>>>
>>> I remember the roll stability project. I cannot remember his name
>>> though. I thought he was using a STAMP processor for that.
>>>
>>> I am just working on getting them up and down again, in the correct
>>> number of pieces. Active stabilization is above my pay grade at this point.
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Chris Attebery <chrisattebery1971@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *To:* tccrockets <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:47 AM
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>>
>>> My theories have ranged from fin misalignment to inconsistent fin
>>> beveling to the way the cameras were mounted.
>>> My DoorKnob only rotated about 90 degrees before apogee at October
>>> Skies. The tube was pre-slotted and I used a router table to shape the
>>> edges of the fins. Was it preparation or just dumb luck?
>>> My TRA Level 2 Flight - 10/18/2014: http://youtu.be/ahpt81EWN40
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 24, 2015 6:22 AM, "Richard King" <drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I watched all of Dave’s flights and subsequent videos. What struck
>>> me was how little roll I noticed on the flights (Nice fin alignment!).
>>> However, even when the flights are that straight and with minimum roll,
>>> there is still the “spinning movie” effect on ascent. Not as bad as most
>>> that can leave one with motion sickness.... I was just wondering how many
>>> people have specifically made a rocket with major anti-roll attributes? I
>>> recall one guy a few years back (sorry I don’t recall your name, but wore
>>> an official looking white jump suit) that was running experiments – one of
>>> which was anti-roll. Just thinking how cool it would be to see a video
>>> without any roll. I’m not trying to set the bar higher for others who
>>> video their flights. All the videos are great. I’m just wondering if some
>>> are working on that particular issue.
>>>
>>> RK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* aaron hagadorn <hagadornclassics@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2015 10:03 PM
>>> *To:* tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>>
>>> Wish I could have been there but prior event took priority sorry guys.
>>> Cleaning party is a must and then prep for DA2015.
>>> On Mar 23, 2015 1:12 PM, "Ben Sandoval" <yobenflstf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Great job to everyone who pitched in, wished I could have made it.
>>> David nice video as always.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, March 23, 2015 8:21 AM, Jimmy Franco <Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice David,
>>>
>>> I always enjoy watching your videos.
>>>
>>> Jimmy F.
>>> TRA 12524
>>>
>>> *From:* James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2015 7:31 AM
>>> *To:* TCC chat <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>>
>>> Very cool! Thanks David
>>>
>>> -James
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:25 AM, David Robb <robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks all who LCO/RSO'd/setup/took down, I had a great time... while I
>>> didn't launch half as many time as the "Green Machine"... I got four up and
>>> back...
>>> My Broken Arrow XP on an Aerotech L1040DM reached 10,157 ft.
>>> Video of my flights.... https://youtu.be/h52qmImWxO4
>>> ==================
>>> David M. Robb
>>> robbdm@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 18:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Subject: [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>> Hey Folks,
>>> Thanks for the great launch day yesterday! Special thanks to Richard
>>> King and
>>> Jimmy Franco for hauling the trailers and PP.
>>> Next month, we plan to have a cleaning party - stay tuned for details
>>> and thanks
>>> again for everyone showing up and helping out - that's what makes a
>>> great club!
>>> -James
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:19 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> NOTAM is hanging, we go live at 16Z
>>> See you all tomorrow!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:28 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Awesome! Thanks Mike
>>> See you Saturday
>>> -James
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 19, 2015, at 10:08 AM, Michael Gentile <smmike@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> BAR will be on site for this Saturday's launch. The wagon is full.
>>> Even have some Madcow killer deals.
>>> Should arrive by 8am.
>>> Mike @ BAR
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:57 AM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Right on! Thanks Jimmy
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Jimmy F. <Aldocyber3@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll stop and hook them up to my truck on the way
>>> out.
>>> Jimmy F.
>>> TRA 12524
>>> *From:*James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 18, 2015 10:01 PM
>>> *To:*TCC chat <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>> Hi Folks,
>>> Can anyone haul the porta-potty out to the launch
>>> site?
>>> Thanks!
>>> -James
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:01 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Everyone,
>>> NOTAM issued today.
>>> Launch is a go for
>>> Saturday!!!
>>> -James
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:58 PM, James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> You know it! See you with the V2 this weekend :-)
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Richard King <drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> While March may be an “off month launch,” the weather should be
>>> superb! For those thinking of flying high altitude, this may be the
>>> best month to plan on doing so.
>>> James, bring your V2 as is. Mine isn’t finished either, but
>>> let’s compare builds.
>>>
>>> RK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:*James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:03 PM
>>> *To:*TCC chat <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] Re: March Launch
>>>
>>> Hey Everybody,
>>> I hope everyone is looking forward to the
>>> launch this weekend;
>>> Richard is hauling the trailer - we're go for
>>> Saturday!
>>>
>>> We got the porta-potties cleaned, if someone wants
>>> to bring them
>>> we can check them out and make sure they are in
>>> good shape.
>>>
>>> I plan to survey all the gear so we can have our cleaning
>>> party
>>> next month and get everything ready for DairyAire.
>>> See you all on Saturday!
>>> -James
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 11:56 AM, James Dougherty
>>> <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Excellent! Thank you Richard
>>> -James
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:16 AM, Richard King
>>> <drrbk@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I should be available to haul the trailer.
>>>
>>> RK
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:*James Dougherty <jafrado@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 10:40 PM
>>> *To:*TCC chat <tccrockets@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Subject:* [tccrockets] March Launch
>>>
>>> Hey Folks,
>>>
>>> Do we have any volunteers for trailer hauling this month?
>>>
>>> -James
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
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>
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