[sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

From: "David Rose" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ("david.rose")
To: "sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:18:11 +0000

Heh heh, no that’s the system-text analogy. Features in systems generalise
recurrent instances, as Nigel’s Dad says Nigel was doing below. They’re always
only snapshots in time.

From: sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of Kieran McGillicuddy <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sunday, 12 June 2022 at 2:12 am
To: sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
as a semiotic system is merely a snapshot of recurring instances
No it's not. The weather/climate analogy has always been silly.

On Saturday, 11 June 2022 at 14:06:33 BST, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Indeed, as a semiotic system is merely a snapshot of recurring instances, a
semiotic theory is merely a snapshot of recurring applications. As a system
evolves with changing instances, so a theory evolves with its applications.

Returning for a moment to Nigel, his Dad documents the features he produces,
but explains their functions in terms of discourse with others...

The two tones, rising and

falling, were functionally quite distinct. With the rising tone, the

meaning was 'somebody do something!', 'I want (some particular

good or service)'; some answer, in deeds or (increasingly, over time)

in words, was being demanded and had to be forthcoming for the

speech act to have been, in Nigel's view, successful (i.e. he would go

on saying it until it was responded to). I referred to this type as

'pragmatic'. With the falling tone, the meaning was 'that's the way

things are'; no response was expected, although the listener often

provided one - 'yes, that's a green bus', 'no, that's blue/that's a van'

and so on. I called this type 'mathetic' because they had a learning

function; where the pragmatic foregrounded the instance (do that

now!), the mathetic assigned the instance to a system ('that's a case of

...'), locating it within a semantic space made up of categories and

relationships. [2004]

David

.

From: sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf
of 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Saturday, 11 June 2022 at 8:39 am
To: sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

One always reasons for a reason, David; very often one reasons in order to make
judgments . Nota bene: I did say that I thought Halliday was not exactly
Marxist, at least not in the rather exacting sense that I understand Marxism,
and Halliday's own attitude towards both Saussure and Firth can fairly be
described as revisionist as well. I think I even said that my own work, which
uses ontogenetic data to understand the stratification of both the content
plane and the expression plane, was a kind of revisionism.

On the one hand, there is an esoteric SFL, which has a whole system of complex
and interdependent ideas that  really needs to be kept whole, sharp and
distinct in order to endure as a system. On the other hand, there is an
exoteric SFL, which is constantly taking out this or that subsystem of ideas
for a bout of praxis (e.g. genre based pedagogy, appraisal, and my own work in
Vygotsky's pedology). It goes without saying that both the esoteric and the
exoteric have their place, that they have different standards to keep and
different roles to play, and that revisionism is a minor occupational hazard in
the latter and a much more serious existential threat to the former.

dk

2022년 6월 8일 (수) 오후 4:10, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>님이 작성:

I’m not sure Rosemary

DK’s argument seems reasonable until perhaps point e) when for some reason,
judgement overtakes reason (which DK himself might admit;).

Far from revisionism, each of us can do no more than apply and extend the old
man’s work, which is what makes us an SFL family (though we may have favourites
among our siblings;). My own clumsy wordings were merely an invitation to look
again at his evidence, from another perspective. So what does himself say?

[cid:K3hTh0uDDxrU8hOpeWoB]

Nigel at 14mths... ‘Here for the first time a system of experiential meaning
(three personal names) becomes separated from, and freely combinable with, a
system of interpersonal meaning (two moods). This is the child's first step
towards a lexicogrammatical stratum.

…by 18 months he has embarked on the transition to the mother tongue. Some
signs are disappearing, while the others have become lexicalized and have
formed the basis of a rapidly expanding vocabulary, now around a hundred items…

In the month from 1;6 to 1;7 Nigel's lexicogrammatical resources expanded very
quickly, extending beyond single words to utterances of two words and then
three… In the next two weeks, however, a remarkable change took place…  Any
rising tone utterance demanded a response… A falling tone utterance, on the
other hand…was semiotically self-sufficient and with these Nigel did not press
for a response…’ [Halliday 2004]

I should have added earlier that infants of course engage in exchanges with
carers, but they are mainly controlled by the adult. The resources MAKH
documents enable the child to start controlling them. It interests me that MAKH
does in fact make their discourse semantic function explicit.. ‘Any rising tone
utterance demanded a response’, i.e. initiating a knowledge exchange.

David

From: sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of Rosemary Huisman
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 at 10:21 am
To: sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

Thanks, dk.

Elegantly put.

Rosemary.

________________________________

From: sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, 8 June 2022 6:48 AM
To: sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

David has really found the nub of my disagreement.  Let me go through what he
says step by step so that I can find the exact steps where I do not follow him.

a) As David says, without the grammar, there is a one-to-one correspondence
between soundings and meanings:

b) As David says, these non-grammatical signs are microfunctional rather than
multifunctional.

c) I think what David means by the "mother-tongue examples" are not examples of
child meanings. They are, as MAKH says, mother tongue glosses of Nigel's signs,
"translations", as it were, of child speech into adult language (and it's here
that Chris's remark about a VERY DIFFERENT semantics is fully relevant). The
"mother-tongue examples" are, therefore, not actually the child's texts at all,
and certainly do not represent multiple moves on the part of the child.

d) I also think that the Phase II breakthrough is not recombining tones with
words: that is only the specific form it took in the case of Nigel (and perhaps
some other children). The Phase II breakthrough is, as MAKH says, the child's
abandonment of his own attempts at constructing a language and his
revolutionary seizure of the language he finds in the environment. To take over
this language, however, he must wield it for his own semantic purposes, and not
for the semantic purposes offered in the environment.

e) MAKH doesn't "foreground" the breakthrough into grammar and discourse
semantics: he rejects the idea that the child takes over discourse semantics
from the environment and denies that the child abandons child semantics. The
child's thinking remains what it was: the child does not take over adult-sized
concepts along with adult wordings (for example, children use the word "death"
for years without any understanding of what it actually might mean). That is
why we see marked crises in child thinking that Vygotsky observes around age
three (negation), seven (iverbal imagination), and thirteen (concepts). The
idea that the "discourse semantics" of Martin and Rose is somehow "implicit" in
the examples of MAKH is a classic revisionist move on the part of Rose. In this
case, it's an extremely weak revisionist move, since the theoretician (MAKH) is
also the primary data gatherer and data interpreter, and he explicitly rejects
this possibility. This might answer David's question about why MAKH and RH do
not take up the idea that "register" and "genre" instantiate in the context of
situation in the same way they do in the system as a whole.

f) There is indeed a bifurcation symmetrical to the bifurcation of meaning and
wording necessitated by Nigel's taking over adult wordings without giving up
child meaning. But it's not the bifurcation of the context plane into
"register" and "genre", because register and text type (not "genre", which is
only used to describe literature text in Halliday and Hasan) lie very far out
of the child's reach towards the system end of the cline of instantiation. The
symmetrical bifurcation (referred to in IFG 2014: 25) is the bifurcation of the
expression plane into phonology and phonetics, which is necessitated by the
child's taking over adult words (e.g. "Anna") with child meanings (e.g. UP
intonation for "Where's Anna?" and DOWN for ""There's Anna!").

(If you look at the IFG, though, you will see that the bifurcation into
phonetics and phonology is actually symmetrical to a phylogenetic transition
into grammar rather than an ontogenetic one. The only support Halliday offers
for my OWN bit of revisionism--the argument that this bifurcation takes place
in an observable ontogenetic history rather than in a purely speculative
prehistory--can be found in a footnote on the same page.)

dk

2022년 6월 6일 (월) 오후 12:43, David Rose
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>님이 작성:

If we look at his examples of Nigel’s protolanguage, each microfunctional
utterance is a simple sign, initiating or responding, as David K quotes below.
The mother-tongue examples are then multi-move texts. The Phase II breakthrough
of recombining tones with ‘words’ enables multi-move exchanges of knowledge as
well as action. It is a simultaneous breakthrough into the metafunctions of
grammar and discourse semantics. This is not foregrounded in MAKH’s discussion,
as his systems focus on cataloguing nascent grammatical features. But it is
apparent in the examples. The disassociation and recombination of content and
expression planes enables the bifurcation of the content plane into grammar and
discourse. It also enables the bifurcation of the context plane into register
and genre.

David

From: sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과 <dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Monday, 6 June 2022 at 1:00 pm
To: sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sys-func@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

That's what I thought he meant too, Chris. But here is MAKH talking about
Nigel's transition from Phase I (bistratal) language into Phase II (tristratal):

"There is, with Nigel, a discontinuity in the expression, as well as, of
course, the discontinuity that arises from the introduction of a third level of
coding into the system. But there is no discontinuity in the content. The
social functions that have determined the protolanguage--satisfying immediate
needs, controlling people's behavior, being 'together', expressing the
uniqueness of the self, exploring the world of the non-self and creating a
world in the imgiation--all these evolve gradually and naturally into the
social contexts and situation types that we characterize as semiotic
structures; and the semantic system, the meaning potential that derives from
these functions, evolve likewise. The progressive approximation of the child's
meanings to those of the adult through interaction with and reinforcement by
older speakers, begins before these meanings are (necessarily) realized through
the words and structures of the adult language, and continues without
interruption. Without thesi continuity,the semantic system could not function
effectively in the transmission of the social system from the adult to the
child."

("A sociosemiotic perspective on language development", in Collected Works of
MAKH Vol. 4, p. 109)

I think that Halliday was not exactly a Marxist, at least not in the sense that
I understand (and believe in) Marxism. In his essay on "The Influence of
Marxism" (in Halliday in the 21st Century), he is almost apologetic about it,
and considers the influence quite narrowly circumscribed. MAKH speaks of the
early influence of the CPGB linguistic circle and their shared interest in the
languages of the colonized peoples, which is something he shared with Firth,
who was anything but a Marxist. Although MAKH rejects "post-Marxism" as a
label, he is not so dismissive of "neo-Marxism". Philosophically, his position
that matter and meaning are not (yet) reducible to a single substance is
anti-monist--so he's not even a convinced Spinozian (Spinozism is really an
entry condition for Marxism and even for Hegelianism).

I think his attempt (if it is his attempt rather than Christian's attempt) to
use logic rather than historical materialism here doesn't work for me. The
differentiation of the content plane isn't a logical operation--it's a
historical one, and, seen as something that happens first between people and
then is neurologically encoded within them, ti is a process that is just as
material as the (corresponding) differentiation of the expression plane into
phonetics and phonology and subsequently into phonetics and graphology. These
weren't logical operations: logic was an afterthought. As Halliday says (and as
Engels said), logic is just history with the messy bits left out.

dk

2022년 6월 6일 (월) 오전 11:21, Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh
<c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>님이 작성:

Hi David,

What I take them to mean is that lexicogrammatical form and its function
originate as one. As they say, if it weren't for grammatical metaphor,
semantics and lexicogrammar could probably be modelled as function and form.
The relation of function to form is one of symbolic identity: they are two
perspectives on the same phenomenon, like the form and function of a chair.

On Halliday's model, a child's content plane before the move into language is
very different from the semantic stratum of language.

Yes, my 'Marx and Engels' lecturer long ago pointed out that Marx's original
quotation about religion being the opium of the people was also meant to
include its beneficial aspect.

ChEeRS,

ChRIS

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 at 11:18, 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과
<dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:dkellogg60@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Chris--

I don't really understand what they (MAKH and CMIMM) mean when they say that
the two ORIGINATE as one, because there is a LOGICAL relationship between the
two. Logically, there has to be two things for there to be any relationship
"between" two processes.

On the other hand, if you take a historical materialist view, the two strata do
originate as one stratum, because the child does have something very like a
semantics before the lexicogrammatical layer comes into being. Isn't it more
correct to say that the two strata originate as one because there is a
historical (ontogenetic) relationship between the two (there may also be a
sociogenetic and even a phylogenetic relationship, but that's beyond my
expertise).

(Marxism may be the opium of intellectuals, but opium has very important
medical uses, you know....)

dk

2022년 6월 6일 (월) 오전 8:22, Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh
<c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>>님이 작성:

Dear Colleagues,

The following quotes (focused on the ideational metafunction) might be useful
for anyone who is unclear on Halliday's theoretical motivation for stratifying
the content plane into semantics and grammar.

Halliday & Matthiessen (1999: 26, 237):

Thus when we move from the lexicogrammar into the semantics, as we are doing
here, we are not simply relabelling everything in a new terminological guise.
We shall stress the fundamental relationship between (say) clause complex in
the grammar and sequence in the semantics, precisely because the two originate
as one: a theory of logical relationships between processes. But, as we have
shown, what makes such a theory (i.e. an ideation base as the construal of
experience) possible is that it is a stratal construction that can also be
deconstructed, every such occasion being a gateway to the creation of further
meanings which reconstrue in new and divergent ways. Thus a sequence is not
'the same thing as' a clause complex; if it was, language would not be a
dynamic open system of the kind that it is. …

Of course, what we are recognising here as two distinct constructions, the
semantic and the grammatical, never had or could have had any existence the one
prior to the other; they are our analytic representation of the overall
semioticising of experience — how experience is construed into meaning. If the
congruent pattern had been the only form of construal, we would probably not
have needed to think of semantics and grammar as two separate strata: they
would be merely two facets of the content plane, interpreted on the one hand as
function and on the other as form.

--

dr chris cléirigh

Marxism is the opium of the intellectuals.

====================================

My Linguistics Sites

Thoughts That Cross My
Mind<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/EfkSCK1DvKTqZEqDqFoo0w3?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au>

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Factoring Out
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Martin's Discourse Semantics, Register &
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Working With Discourse: Meaning Beyond The
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The Cardiff
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The Thought
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Attitude In Systemic Functional
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Martin's Model Of
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Lexis As Most Local
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Making Sense Of
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====================================

--

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

,

New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:

Vygotsky’s pedology of the adolescent: the discovery of sex and the invention
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New book of translations from L.S. Vygotsky's pedological work with Nikolai
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--

dr chris cléirigh

Marxism is the opium of the intellectuals.

— Edmund Burke

====================================

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Informing
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Making Sense Of
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Systemic Functional
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Sys-Func<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/yYGHCYW8Noc3j13D3I6qS-w?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Sysfling<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Mw4bCXLW2mUnk5n4nforHdY?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

The Thought
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Thoughts That Cross My
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Martin's Discourse Semantics, Register &
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Thoughts That Didn't
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Working With Discourse: Meaning Beyond The
Clause<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/8EBkCOMKzVTAERANAIYhK0x?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

The Cardiff
Grammar<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/p6IbCP7LAXf4JG404CRg25z?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Lexis As Most Local
Context<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/HAhgC2xMQzik0lkVkTGnjlc?domain=lexisasmostlocalcontext.blogspot.com/>

Factoring Out
Structure<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/QUX6CMwGxOt5vO525cOvvds?domain=yaegandoran.blogspot.com/>

Attitude In Systemic Functional
Linguistics<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/XU0nCZY1NqiMX4M7MF6f2A5?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com.au/>

====================================

--

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

,

New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:

Vygotsky’s pedology of the adolescent: the discovery of sex and the invention
of
love<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/EOYKC4QOPEiJR0JzJH4twf1?domain=url310.tandfonline.com>

50 free online copies  available at:

https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/CTJKPMUKGBANU5SNYG8T/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2022.2030362<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/32LeC5QPXJi0wj0M0Uqf0Re?domain=tandfonline.com>

New article with Irina Leopoldoff-Martin and Bernard Schneuwly.: "Developing
Concepts of Development in Vygotsky’s pédologie: Introduction to the Special
Issue" in Mind, Culture and Activity.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2022.2026972<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/DHeQC6XQ4LfoZOoPouRWNOA?domain=tandfonline.com>

50 free online copies  available at:

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New book of translations from L.S. Vygotsky's pedological work with Nikolai
Veresov.

L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The Problem of Age

Downloadable pdfs at:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-16-1907-6%2F1.pdf<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/v-p2C81V0PTjBvjXjtjnO1n?domain=link.springer.com>

and

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-16-1907-6%2F1.pdf<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/pW-FC91WPRTmr3mzmslQUF9?domain=link.springer.com>

--

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

,

New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:

Vygotsky’s pedology of the adolescent: the discovery of sex and the invention
of
love<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/EOYKC4QOPEiJR0JzJH4twf1?domain=url310.tandfonline.com>

50 free online copies  available at:

https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/CTJKPMUKGBANU5SNYG8T/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2022.2030362<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/32LeC5QPXJi0wj0M0Uqf0Re?domain=tandfonline.com>

New article with Irina Leopoldoff-Martin and Bernard Schneuwly.: "Developing
Concepts of Development in Vygotsky’s pédologie: Introduction to the Special
Issue" in Mind, Culture and Activity.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2022.2026972<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/DHeQC6XQ4LfoZOoPouRWNOA?domain=tandfonline.com>

50 free online copies  available at:

https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/DNZTW3URNHIIMCYBKWX6/full?target=10.1080/10749039.2022.2026972<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_hvuC71R2NTmnpmzmsMbX8K?domain=tandfonline.com>

New book of translations from L.S. Vygotsky's pedological work with Nikolai
Veresov.

L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works, Volume 2: The Problem of Age

Downloadable pdfs at:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm%3A978-981-16-1907-6%2F1.pdf<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/v-p2C81V0PTjBvjXjtjnO1n?domain=link.springer.com>

and

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bbm%3A978-981-16-1907-6%2F1.pdf<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/pW-FC91WPRTmr3mzmslQUF9?domain=link.springer.com>

--

David Kellogg

Sangmyung University

정서 학설 2 - 역사-심리학적 연구  | 비고츠키 선집 14

레프 세묘노비치 비고츠키 (지은이),비고츠키 연구회 (옮긴이)살림터2022-06-18

https://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/wproduct.aspx?ItemId=296200809<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Pfk3C0YKPvi2Yo2k2H6e5Kj?domain=aladin.co.kr>

References:
- [sys-func] The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: David Rose
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: Rosemary Huisman
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: David Rose
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: 데이브드켈로그_교수_영어교육과
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: David Rose
- [sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane
  - From: Kieran McGillicuddy

[sys-func] Re: The Stratification of the Content Plane

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