[SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Embedded capacitance on Flex..??
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Larry.Smith@xxxxxxx, ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:21:47 -0700
Lee, if they are seeking approval by treating it as glass / epoxy laminate,
that isn't much of a surprise. Cply is not glass / epoxy.
Steve.
At 05:05 PM 8/23/2005 -0700, Lee Ritchey wrote:
>My clients have not been able to get approval for laminate that thin. How
>are others getting approval?
>
>Lee W. Ritchey
>Speeding Edge
>P. O. Box 2194
>Glen Ellen, CA 95442
>Phone- 707-568-3983
>FAX- 707-568-3504
>
>I just used the energy it took to be angry to write some blues.
>Count Basie
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <Larry.Smith@xxxxxxx>;
><ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: <adsurevv@xxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 8/23/2005 4:47:24 PM
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Embedded capacitance on Flex..??
> >
> > Lee, that is a good point. But for rigid board applications, C-Ply can
>be
> > had with a compromise Er that still supports 2500V / mil.
> >
> > Steve.
> > At 04:38 PM 8/23/2005 -0700, Lee Ritchey wrote:
> > >Don't forget that ultra thin dielectrics can result in unreliable PCBs
>due
> > >to dielectric breakdown. Gr86 core requires a 4 mil minimum separation
> > >between planes.
> > >
> > >Lee W. Ritchey
> > >Speeding Edge
> > >P. O. Box 2194
> > >Glen Ellen, CA 95442
> > >Phone- 707-568-3983
> > >FAX- 707-568-3504
> > >
> > >I just used the energy it took to be angry to write some blues.
> > >Count Basie
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <Larry.Smith@xxxxxxx>; <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Cc: <adsurevv@xxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Date: 8/23/2005 4:30:46 PM
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [SI-LIST]: Embedded capacitance on Flex..??
> > > >
> > > > Larry, DuPont and 3M both have thin dielectric with elevated Ers that
>is
> > > > nice stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Some caution is warranted though depending on the specific
> > > > application. High Er material can do good things as you said. For a
> > >given
> > > > skin and dielectric loss, the peak magnitude of the parallel resonant
> > >peak
> > > > falls approximately as the inverse square root of Er. It tends to be
> > >even
> > > > better than that as higher dielectric loss pulls down the peak as
> > > > well. But there are some potential rocks in that stream:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Reduced board modal resonant frequencies, good for damping,
> > >potentially
> > > > bad if too low
> > > > 2. Reduced board to discrete capacitor parallel resonant frequency.
>Can
> > >be
> > > > a good or bad thing. Introduces more variables to discrete bypass
>design.
> > > > 3. Increased risk of quarter wave resonance within power delivery band
> > > > between discrete caps and IC die.
> > > > 4. Much higher material cost.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Steve.
> > > > At 01:24 PM 8/23/2005 -0700, Larry Smith wrote:
> > > > >Virendra - I believe that Dupont has some thin, flexible dielectric
> > > > >that can be loaded with ceramic to bump up the dielectric constant.
> > > > >
> > > > >We have found that the best value comes from thin dielectric because
> > > > >it both reduces inductance and increases capacitance resulting in
> > > > >lower impedance. The lower power plane impedance produces more
> > > > >damping, which is a good for reducing power plane resonances.
> > > > >
> > > > >By increasing the dielectric constant alone (no dimensional changes)
> > > > >the capacitance per square area is increased but it turns out that
>the
> > > > >capacitance available to a power consumer with in a given time frame
> > > > >(i.e. 1 nSec) is the same. This is because the velocity of
> > > > >electromagnetic propagation goes down with increasing dielectric.
>The
> > > > >cylindrical wavefront that goes out from a disturbance "uncovers" the
> > > > >same amount of capacitance per time, independent of the dielectric
> > > > >constant.
> > > > >
> > > > >So if you are looking for high frequency capacitance to satisfy those
> > > > >fast edges, thin dielectric is good, high dielectric constant is
> > > > >neutral.
> > > > >
> > > > >regards,
> > > > >Larry Smith
> > > > >Sun Microsystems
> > > > >
> > > > >Ray Anderson wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Typically the way I've seen it done in the past is to use a very
>thin
> > > > > > dielectric material (~2 mil thick) to achieve the higher than
>usual
> > > > > > capacitance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most hi-k materials are loaded with some sort of ceramic material
> > >which
> > > > > > tends to make them somewhat less than flexible which could be an
>issue
> > > > > > with a flex board.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that the materials people are always developing new and
> > >innovative
> > > > > > solutions, so what was true a couple of years ago when I looked
>at the
> > > > > > issue may no longer be the case.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Ray
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > On Behalf Of Virendra
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 12:11 PM
> > > > > > To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] [SI-LIST]: Embedded capacitance on Flex..??
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello All,
> > > > > > Does anyone have experience with embedded capacitance
> > > > > > (wih high K) on a flex circuit board? If yes, are
> > > > > > there any issues with bending the part of the flex
> > > > > > with the high k material..?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks in advance,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > virendra
> > > > > >
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