Heidi,
Yes, your assessment is correct and there is a reason why things have
evolved this way.
Traditionally the two jobs were very much separated: DC-DC converter
vendors designed the DC sources and teams at different companies
designed systems with them. Many converter modules used to have enough
capacitance (capacitors) on their inputs and outputs and the connection
to the rest of the user circuit was inductive enough that to a large
degree the two design processes could be done independent of each
other. The model simplifications about the other side's circuit usually
worked well.
The filtering boundaries that used to isolate and separate the
converters and the user circuits are being taken down to achieve lower
cost and higher density, so in these days there is significant
interaction between the converters and user loads. However, in case of
off-the-shelf DC-DC converters, the two design teams are still separate:
the DC-DC converter design team has no way of knowing what the user
circuit is going to be, so they MUST use simplifications and assumptions
about the user load. The system design team's situation is somewhat
similar: people have to use converters, which were designed without
knowledge about their detailed user requirements. In an ideal world the
system design team should be able to get all the information about the
selected DC-DC converter, but for cost and resource reasons, the data is
rarely complete enough to do a detailed system design without major
simplifications about the converters' behavior.
This is currently a major challenge for many people, whether we use
DC-DC modules or embedded converter designs.
Regards,
Istvan Novak
Oracle
On 10/26/2016 4:23 PM, heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Hello SI-List enthusiasts,
Just following up on my "Power Integrity vs. Power Electronics question on
what does PI really include?" question:
After our Power Seminar in the mid-west, I found it very interesting to bring
both "Power Electronics" Engineers and "Power Integrity" engineers together.
The result was a very simple answer to my question:
The Power Integrity engineer is all about the sink or load and spends a lot
of time simplifying the power generation end, ie the simple series R-L model
of a regulator.
The Power Electronics engineer is all about the ultimate source and spends a
lot of time simplifying the load, ie sometimes as simple as a resistor.
The insight gained from meeting with engineers on both sides is that they are
in need of more realistic behavioral models for the part that they are not
simulating in detail, and a better convergence of terminology. Such as
impedance vs step load response.
Good luck with your next adventure into PI....
Heidi
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 5:37 PM
To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; larrys@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Integrity meets Power Electronics in the Midwest
Larry,
I agree completely, and I especially like the last statement about managing
PDN impedance in all frequency bands, time zones, and levels of assembly.
However, there is still a lot of industry education required. It reminds me
of the SI transition from the days of analog "charging capacitance" on high
speed data lines to transmission line theory.
Thanks for chiming in on my PI question.
-Heidi
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Ritchey [mailto:leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 3:46 PM
To: larrys@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; BARNES,HEIDI (K-SantaRosa,ex1)
<heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Integrity meets Power Electronics in the
Midwest
Well said!
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Smith, Larry
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 3:22 PM
To: heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Integrity meets Power Electronics in the Midwest
Heidi - In my mind, the power integrity problem is "DC to daylight." We
need to concern ourselves with everything from seconds to pico-seconds,
which is more than 10 decades of frequency content.
Power integrity engineers in the mobile space are vitally concerned about
battery life and protection of the battery from over-current. In the server
space we are concerned with power consumption from the building and public
utility grid. We are concerned with VRMs including the SMPS (switched mode
power supply, buck converters) and the LDO (low drop out, linear regulators)
and their interface to bulk capacitors on the board. We are concerned with
the high-frequency ceramic capacitors and their mount to the board power
planes. Likewise, the electronic package, package caps, vias and package
power planes. Then there are the die bumps, on-die power grid in 10 layers
of metal, vias and on-die capacitance.
We are concerned with clock edge noise in a small portion of a 2 GHz clock
cycle (500 pSec period) as well as the VRM droop that lasts for micro-seconds
(1000's of clock cycles) and sufficiently low battery impedance to support
maximum loading.
It really all comes down to managing your PDN impedance in all frequency
bands, time zones and levels of assembly.
Regards,
Larry Smith
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 1:23 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Power Integrity meets Power Electronics in the Midwest
Looks like the link got corrupted in translation....
Here is a tiny url to replace the long one http://tinyurl.com/jum7euh
Or go to www.keysight.com/find/events
-Heidi
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of heidi_barnes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 10:40 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Power Integrity meets Power Electronics in the Midwest
To All:
I have a question for the SI world now that PI is rapidly catching on to the
world of high frequencies.
Does Power Integrity include Power Electronics and Power Distribution
Networks... or does it only apply to powering high speed digital devices?
Next week I will be co-presenting with my colleague Chris Mueth. I will be
covering the latest in Power Integrity, and Chris Mueth on Power Electronics
at three stops in the Midwest:
September 27th - Bloomington, Mn (Minneapolis) September 28th - Schaumburg,
IL (Chicago) September 29th - Novi, MI (Detroit) (Special guest Steve
Sandler of Picotest, author of Power Integrity)
If you are interested, please check out the link or send me a reply:
http://www.keysight.com/main/eventDetail.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey'26153&nid=-3
5198.0.08&id'26153
At our final stop in Detroit, industry expert Steve Sandler of Picotest and
author of the book Power Integrity: Measuring, Optimizing, and
Troubleshooting Power Related Parameters in Electronics Systems will be a
guest speaker. He always welcomes questions from the audience, and I am sure
he will have an answer for my PI/PE/PDN question.
Best Regards,
Heidi Barnes
Keysight Technologies, EEsof EDA Software
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