So the wire is surrounded by: Insulation (er =3D ?)=20 Then air (er =3D 1) (maybe we can neglect if wire is secured to board?) then FR-4 (er =3D ~4) This would be the stack-up for the rework wire, while the trace would be = at "Layer 2" with just FR-4 underneath. Curt Curt McNamara, P.E.=A0// principal electrical engineer=20 Logic Product Development 411 Washington Ave. N. Suite 400 Minneapolis, MN 55401 T // 612.436.5178 F // 612.672.9489 www.logicpd.com=20 / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /=20 This message (including any attachments) contains confidential = information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is = protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should = delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action = based on it, is strictly prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] = On Behalf Of Jennings, Kevin F Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:00 PM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx modelling of 'wire over ground' Curt, Yes your description of the circuit is accurate and yes there is an = actual wire added on the PCB which is why I picked the 'wire over = ground' element to model this (prior to actually putting the wire on the = board). The relatively accurate prediction of signal quality when dealing with = PCB traces but relatively poor prediction when adding another driver and = a single physical wire to the model was rather surprising. My question here was mainly to see whether or not anyone else had tried = to model a rework wire (and/or multiple drivers) to a PCB and had = HyperLynx accurately predict (or not) the resulting waveform. I haven't totally ruled out user error on my part, and still need to go = back and re-validate that my LineSim representation is an adequate = representation of the PCB (apparently if I had LineSim EXT I could = export the net from BoardSim and import it into LineSim...sigh). From = there maybe try to trace down what differences between model and reality = that could explain the discrepancy, and if all that fails, open a case = with the good folks at Mentor and see if they can explain the = difference. I definitely agree about the series termination, that's how I design = things but when tasked with trying to salvage something one has to do = what one has to do. Thanks for your input (and to all the others who've responded here and = privately). Kevin Jennings -----Original Message----- From: Curt McNamara [mailto:CurtM@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:10 AM To: Jennings, Kevin F; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Hyperlynx modelling of 'wire over ground' There are several possibilities. From your description it appears you = have a net with driver and multiple receivers in LineSim. You then add = another transmission line with another driver and tie it into the first = transmission line. Is that correct? Do you have both drivers active at = the same time? In the real board, is this second transmission line an actual wire on a = PCB? If these are all correct, here are some possibilities: The actual wire does not have the impedance you model. The actual wire has significant parasitics which you haven't modeled. In general we avoid multiple drivers on a single line. There are several = issues: output circuitry may not parallel nicely; propagation delay to = inputs may be different; pulses originating at different line lengths = arrive at receivers at different times, leading to reflections like you = observe. For the case you described we would commonly use series termination at = the driver. Small resistors can often be placed between package leads = and solder pads to prove this out. Curt Curt McNamara, P.E. // principal electrical engineer Logic Product Development 411 Washington Ave. N. Suite 400 Minneapolis, MN 55401 T // 612.436.5178 F // 612.672.9489 www.logicpd.com / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / This message (including any attachments) contains confidential = information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is = protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should = delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, = copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action = based on it, is strictly prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] = On Behalf Of Jennings, Kevin F Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:59 AM To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [SI-LIST] Hyperlynx modelling of 'wire over ground' I'm consulting on a signal integrity issue on a board and trying to use = Hyp=3D erLynx to model proposed changes to the net. The BoardSim model of the = PCB=3D net appears to be a fairly accurate model of reality. When I construct = a =3D LineSim model of the net it also seems to be a fairly accurate model of = rea=3D lity. However, when I then add a 'wire over ground' to the Linesim = model t=3D he HyperLynx predicted waveforms seem to be nowhere near what is = actually s=3D een on the reworked PCBA. The net in question is ~20 inches long, ~40MHz clock driven by a single = dri=3D ver into ~50 ohm PCB with 7 loads distributed along the line; the single = dr=3D iver does not have nearly enough oomph to produce a clean edge on the = incid=3D ent wave. What I was proposing as a rework was a wire from a second = driver=3D into an appropriate spot in the net. The Linesim model shows a = relatively=3D clean edge now but adding the wire on the PCBA does not. Instead there = is=3D a ~1V 5 ns wide dip in the signal after the first incident wave switch = tha=3D t in some of the loads is dipping back near the Vih spec limit. Varying the Linesim 'wire over ground' parameters (wire radius and = distance=3D from ground) suggests that the proposed rework is relatively = insensitive t=3D o both which then suggests that the major contributor to the change in = the =3D signal (from the model's perspective) is the change in the net topology = and=3D available drive that occurs by adding the second driver and wire, which = is=3D as I expected. The fact that reality diverges so far from the model basically renders = the =3D model useless for testing changes from a model perspective. Does Linesim maybe not do well when modeling multiple drivers on a net? Does Linesim maybe not model 'wire over ground' very well? Anything else that I'm missing that might explain the wide discrepancy = betw=3D een model and reality when wiring in a second driver given that the = model w=3D as fairly accurate with the unmodified PCBA? Thanks for your input. Kevin Jennings ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu