[SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect

  • From: Carson Au <carson.au@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: Lee <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 15:23:17 +1100

I cannot find any information on Isola Chronon. Is information publicly
available?
On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Lee <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I have tested GigaSync and Chronon from Isola.  Both of them produced very
> good results.  Maximum skew over 14" was 2 pSec.  Sample size 12.
>
> I'm not sure what Nelco, Panasonic and others are doing in  this area.
> Does anyone out there know?
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Jonas Magnusson
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 7:14 PM
> To: leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Carson Au
> Cc: Ken Cantrell ; Loyer, Jeff ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>
>
> Gurus, what is your thoughts on the Isola Gigasync mtrl?
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Jonas Magnusson
> Senior Hardware Designer
> Teamleader Hardware design
> Synopsys Hardware Platforms Group
> Synopsys, Inc.
> Kalkstensvägen 3
> SE-224 57 LUND
> SWEDEN
>
> Phone : +46-46-16 29 05
> Fax : +46-46-16 29 01
> Cell : +46-70-89 89 774
> E-mail : jonasm@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Web : www.synopsys.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Lee
> Sent: den 5 december 2014 17:18
> To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carson Au
> Cc: Ken Cantrell; Loyer, Jeff; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>
> AH!  The gods again!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott McMorrow
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 2:50 PM
> To: Carson Au
> Cc: Ken Cantrell ; Loyer, Jeff ; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>
> One must be patient and wait for the gods to reveal such a material.
> Release is imminent.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Scott McMorrow
> Teraspeed® Consulting - A Division of Samtec
> 16 Stormy Brook Rd
> Falmouth, ME 04105
> (401) 284-1827 Business
> http://www.teraspeed.com
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Carson Au <carson.au@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>  What are these spread-independent materials? I only know of Isola's
>> Gigasync.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Ken Cantrell <ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Jeff,
>>> Give him the money!! :)
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
>>> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 3:00 PM
>>> To: Loyer, Jeff
>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>> on the shining the light thing, that's called an optical densitometer.
>>> you can make one with a calibrated flatbed scanner.  Then it's a
>>> matter of creating a table of optical density vs Er.  It would make
>>> for a nice academic study.
>>>
>>> As for the dozens of materials I've characterized recently, I can
>>> tell you that I have a method that provides a very accurate relative
>>> figure of merit between weave/resin systems in one trace measurement
>>> per laminate stackup, not accounting for non-orthogonality of board
>>> and weave.  A few more traces and I can adjust for weave/board
>>> misalignment.
>>>
>>>   As for something that gives statistically accurate skew spread
>>> measurements ... nope.  Care to fund the study?  I know how to do it.
>>> Have
>>> known for 10 years  I know the quickest methodology to get the
>>> statistical results.  It's just a matter of sampling quite a few
>>> boards.
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott McMorrow
>>> Teraspeed® Consulting - A Division of Samtec
>>> 16 Stormy Brook Rd
>>> Falmouth, ME 04105
>>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>>> http://www.teraspeed.com
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Loyer, Jeff <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Scott,
>>> > Can you share any of the studies you've performed to characterize
>>> > the dozens of materials?  I'm especially interested in clever
>>> > techniques you might have used to ensure you measured the maximum
>>> > for each material, given the statistical nature of the problem
>>> > (whenever I think of performing such a study, I am put off by "how
>>> > do I ensure my data includes some representative 'worst case'?").
>>> >
>>> > To all,
>>> > I believe there is extreme ambiguity in the terms used for spread
>>> > glass, I would be wary of any particular terminology (is "ultra"
>>> > better than "hyper"?).  And, even if you do standardize the
>>> > definition of "spread", the net effect is going to vary
>>> > significantly for the various glass styles
>>> > (1080 will probably always be more problematic than 2116, for
>>> > instance).  I don't know of any method of easily quantifying the
>>> > electrical properties of any particular spread glass.  There is
>>> > work on-going for a visible light test, but as far as I know those
>>> > results have not yet been correlated to Vp differences.
>>> > BTW, this might be a nice opportunity for a clever person to come
>>> > up with an easy (cheap, HVM-compatible) method of shining a light
>>> > through glass weaves and quantifying the difference between the
>>> > brightest and darkest areas - ideal "spread glass" would have very
>>> > little difference, corresponding to very little difference in Vp
>>> > across the
>>> weave.
>>> > And finally, I don't know of any silicon solutions, ours or
>>> > otherwise, used explicitly to solve the fiberweave issue.  Adaptive
>>> > equalization may make it less of an issue than it was previously, >
>>> however.
>>> >
>>> > Jeff Loyer
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> > On Behalf Of Scott McMorrow
>>> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 5:42 AM
>>> > To: Havermann, Gert
>>> > Cc: billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: AW: Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>>> >
>>> > Gert,
>>> > Even flat weaves have skew, as easily evidenced by a picture of the
>>> > weave that shows gaps in the overlap of fiber bundles in one direction.
>>> >
>>> > I've found that the killer problem is skew on line cards causing
>>> > diff to common mode conversion that bursts as crosstalk within
>>> > connector PTH via fields and connectors themselves, which are not
>>> > designed to control common modes.  This was seen specifically in a
>>> > significant loss of NEXT margin at receivers from Tx or Rx card
>>> > skew causing excessive crosstalk in the connector pin fields for a
>>> > well-known standard. This required two solutions, one was to
>>> > guardband margin to allow for the additional skew caused NEXT.  The
>>> > other was to use some
>>> skew abatement methods.
>>> >
>>> > Doing 1000's of sensitivity runs I've found that this skew
>>> > sensitivity is much worse on cards than it is on backplanes.  That
>>> > is, the card skew allowance has much less tolerance than does the
>>> > backplane or total end-to-end skew.  Where the skew is located is
>>> > much more important than how much skew there is.
>>> >
>>> > To put some numbers to this phenomena, a 10G link had 12 ps of
>>> > skew, which translates to around -0.7 dB of additional insertion
>>> > loss.  That is generally not a serious issue for 99.9% of all
>>> > designs.  However when the effective loss due to crosstalk was
>>> > factored in, due to diff to common mode and common mode to diff
>>> > conversion, total additional eye
>>> loss was -3.9 dB.
>>> > which is a huge impairment.
>>> >
>>> > In the end, the only solution for skew, especially at 28G rates and
>>> > above, is to utilize special techniques to mitigate skew on
>>> > backplanes, and skew-free materials on cards.  I've measured and
>>> > characterized dozens of materials and can say that I can easily
>>> > demonstrate the potential for any woven PCB laminate to have
>>> > significant skew, even those with spread weaves, except for those
>>> > laminates that are specifically engineered for zero-skew with
>>> > matched
>>> glass and resin dielectric constants.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Scott
>>> >
>>> > Scott McMorrow
>>> > Teraspeed® Consulting - A Division of Samtec
>>> > 16 Stormy Brook Rd
>>> > Falmouth, ME 04105
>>> > (401) 284-1827 Business
>>> > http://www.teraspeed.com
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:29 AM, Havermann, Gert <
>>> > Gert.Havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Hi Bill,
>>> > > I've seen it quite often, but I never seen it killing System
>>> > > performance as we work with good margin, and the Silicon accepts
>>> > > even more skew that expected.
>>> > > One Design was not usable due to weave effect skew. It was a TRL
>>> > > Cal.Stucture where the shortest line hat skew exceeding the Phase
>>> > > difference. After that I redesigned with different Material and
>>> > > flat weave Glass, and that worked great.
>>> > >
>>> > > BR
>>> > > Gert
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > ----------------------------------------
>>> > > Absender ist HARTING Electronics GmbH, Marienwerderstraße 3,
>>> > > D-32339 Espelkamp; Registergericht: Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen;
>>> Register-Nr.:
>>> > > HRB 8808; Vertretungsberechtigte Geschäftsführer: 
>>> > > Dipl.-Kfm.
>>> > > Edgar-Peter Düning, Dipl.-Ing. Torsten Ratzmann,
>>> Dipl.-Wirtschaftsing.
>>> > > Ralf Martin Klein
>>> > >
>>> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> > > Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > > [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>> > > Im Auftrag von Bill Hargin (Nan Ya, USA)
>>> > > Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Dezember 2014 06:04
>>> > > An: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > > Betreff: [SI-LIST] Glass-Weave Skew / Fiber-Weave Effect
>>> > >
>>> > > Hi Folks …
>>> > >
>>> > > I’m doing a bit of research on glass-weave skew / the
>>> > > fiber-weave
>>> effect.
>>> > > I’ve read the articles/presentations, and understand 
>>> > > the
>>> > > nature of the beast, but I’m interested in getting data
>>> > > from the design
>>> trenches.
>>> > >
>>> > > Are you (or do you believe you’ve) seen it in your 
>>> > > designs?
>>> > > What
>>> > > happened, and how did you resolve it?  (E.g., angled routing,
>>> > > low-Dk glass, homogeneous resin/glass, etc.)  What were the
>>> > > characteristics of the material and signals?
>>> > >
>>> > > I have no idea what I’m going to hear in response, but 
>>> > > if
>>> > > you respond offline, I’ll hold the info you provide in 
>>> > > > >
>>> confidence.
>>> > > If
>>> > > you reply publicly – I promise not to share your 
>>> > > secrets
>>> > > beyond the SI-List …
>>> > >
>>> > > Bill Hargin
>>> > > Director of North American Sales / Marketing Nan Ya Copper-Clad
>>> Laminates
>>> > > billh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx   â–ª  425-301-4425  â–ª  
>>> > > Skype:
>>> > > bill.hargin
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
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>>
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