[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: showgsd-l Digest V8 #111
- From: binderhaus@xxxxxxx
- To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 15:42:10 -0500 (EST)
Excellent post Jen!!!
Yes, the stick is padded, and often the hit part is 'pulled' somewhat.
But it is the THREAT and the noise which are the parts one needs to see the dog
is unaffected by. Without the noise/contact the dogs will easily learn there
really is no threat and it's all a game, and then Schutzhund as a breed test
will be useless.
Cynthia Binder DVM
Binderhaus Shepherds
Msg: #6 in digest
From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:19:39 -0600
Wondering here in the frozen wasteland:
So- how many of y'all have been hit YOURSELF with that very stick used in dog
sport, which is both padded and a flexible rod inside?
I have quite a few times-- and Evan I must say it's not an effective weapon on
anything but small insects for doing actual damage and maybe a cat or small dog
would be pained with it. I would rather get hit with "the stick" 10x than
snapped with a wet towel once if that says anything about the physical pain
effects of it!
Ask any children who grew up in a dog sporting home- we all sword fought with
the batons! LOL
The stick is about intimidation and pressure under both threat and contact, not
that the dog will bite despite being placed in pain.
Many dogs will grip with the stick waving but will let loose of the helper when
the contact is made- plus the sticks make quite a whap! noise when they are
struck which will make some dogs loose their nerve- just because contact is
made. Doesn't always so much matter if the contact is a butterfly kiss or
thrown
off a cliff, just the pressure of contact makes them break.
I surely see the anger & sadness & loss people in dog sports feel about this
decision, which sadly is just another manifestation of political correctness
spilling over into our dog community, never mind if it's a disservice to dogs
as
a whole or not, but that people think it's mean to hit someone else with a
stick- maybe if it were another person and maybe if it were a real stick or
even
something that could hurt (let's say even a bruise-- which a baton won't do
without EFFORT I know) someone then maybe I could agree with the decision. We
as
protectors of the GSD have worked so hard to improve upon temperaments and to
keep those good ones strong throughout the generations. What does one think
will
happen, when most of the world's GSDs no longer have their time-honored and
proven method of evaluating their dogs' temperament/work ethic/etc that they
are
all stuck with the "new PCer version" of IPO?
To me it's like taking the gunshot or the umbrella or the scary guy at the end
of our TC... While the rest of the test has it's uses, to take out the "scary"
parts of the TC to make it easier to pass and easier to watch (which I'm sure
is
part of why this rule is coming to be- the spectators who know no better) would
leave us not necessarily knowing if any dog would crack when pressured like
that
unless we had the people, equipment and environment where we were able to do
those portions on our own... But then what would be the point of doing the TC
then if we had to go off on our own to do the "hard parts"??
Jen P & the Pack who think it's a shame that decisions such as these are made
despite the protests from those within the sport and who it really hurts over
the long haul
JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/Proud K911
www.jaydeesphs.com
Committed to the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
AKC Breeder of Merit
-----Original Message-----
From: Showgsd-l <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: showgsd-l digest users <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Fri, Feb 7, 2014 12:20 pm
Subject: showgsd-l Digest V8 #111
DO NOT RETURN THE ENTIRE DIGEST. HIGHLIGHT WHAT YOU WISH TO REPLY TO BEFORE
HITTING REPLY
------------------------------------
showgsd-l Digest Fri, 07 Feb 2014 Volume: 08 Issue: 111
In This Issue:
#1: From: "Stormy V. Hope" <stormy435@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: "BO" Review Memorial Reminder
#2: From: "Kathy Partch" <jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: P.S. Stick hits in SchH
#3: From: ELG440@xxxxxxx
Subject: Walk softly but..............
#4: From: "Kathy Partch" <jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
#5: From: "Rbuffdogs ." <rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
#6: From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Msg: #1 in digest
From: "Stormy V. Hope" <stormy435@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: "BO" Review Memorial Reminder
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 09:21:30 -0800
Good Morning, All
Shirley asked me to post this for her as she is traveling this morning.
Carolyn is set to no mail for most of today. Shirley asks that you please do
not reply to the list. Replies in private to Shirley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a reminder.
If you would like to contribute to the memorial Review page for US Grand
Victrix AOE CH Mar Haven's Black Orchid, ROM, HT, PT, otherwise known as "BO,"
send your contribution to:
Shirley Briggs O'Brien
P.O. Box 1445
Gridley, CA 95948
Please respond to me privately, if you have any questions.
Shirley
Stormy V. Hope
https://www.facebook.com/GSDCA.LegislationAwareness
https://www.facebook.com/CaRPOC.CaliforniaResponsiblePetOwnersCoalition
------------------------------
Msg: #2 in digest
From: "Kathy Partch" <jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: P.S. Stick hits in SchH
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 11:39:06 -0700
I'm sharing an e-mail from a friend in MI who has gotten a SchH 3 on her
GSD. Just her opinion on the so called "stick hit". I thought I would share
with the group since this was brought up a few days ago. Kathy
www.JoKaySedona.com <http://www.jokaysedona.com/>
The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is fighting this big time. I
find it to be ABSURD to do away with the "stick hits." The helper hits the
dogs with a stick (in certain areas that are not vulnerable to any damage,
just some pain) while the dog is biting the helper. The motion of the stick
as it approaches the dog is extremely intimidating. If the dog cowards in
any way or lets go of the sleeve, the dog is immediately disqualified. As
the puppy progresses, we make them immune to the pain of the "tick hits".
The pain becomes minimal to them (because they have become desensitized
since puppies) but the motion of the stick is still intimidating. This shows
us the dogs' temperaments and if they are brave enough to make them
"Breed-worthy". Europe is going to be raising a bunch of cowardly dogs and
is making a mockery of the sport and what Captain Von Stephanitz envisioned
for the GSD. The USCA has already mandated that all club trial will continue
with the "stick hits". Thank god. SchH supporter & trial person in MI
P.S. My GSD Lobo is hugged and kissed at least 20 times a day. AT LEAST!
He loves his kisses and he's the biggest baby you'd ever want to meet.
He even sits on my lap.
He's very gentle with my other two German Shepherd's. You would never know
that he is an IPO3. NEVER!
If I don't kiss him frequently, he will shove his cheek against my mouth for
his kisses.
He also has his TDI.
I would never hurt my dog Lobo and never allow him to be hurt.
It's just that the temperament is very important. Seems like a GSD who
cowards' is not a good temperament and I wouldn't breed one that did that.
Even my young bitch is brave with the stick hits. She actually enjoys the
sport!
"Show me your dog and I'll tell you what manner of man you are"
Captain Max von Stephanitz, 1864-1936
------------------------------
Msg: #3 in digest
From: ELG440@xxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:13:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Walk softly but..............
I do not do schutzhund work, not do I ever intend to.
I can't believe making a dog used to getting hit by a stick is a good
thing. I know, we train them to find bombs and get blown up, but I don't like
that either. I don't like having dolphins carry explosives either.
To me, it is smart not to want to get hit by anything, and I never felt the
need to put my will on my dog, to get him to do something I want, and not
what is reasonable for any animal.
I do understand that is my personal opinion, and I may be wrong. But, I
will never desensitize my dog from being hit. Tedi tried that for years with
me, and I never got used to it.
I was going to say I tried that for years on Tedi, but decided the way I
said it above is going to cause me enough grief.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Evan
In a message dated 2/7/2014 10:39:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
As
the puppy progresses, we make them immune to the pain of the "tick hits".
The pain becomes minimal to them (because they have become desensitized
since puppies) but the motion of the stick is still intimidating.
------------------------------
Msg: #4 in digest
From: "Kathy Partch" <jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:29:17 -0700
I do know what you mean about the "stick hitting" Evan? Probably seems just
not natural to the most of us dog-loving people because we've never done the
sport -- although I do like most of the exercises in SchH. Especially their
BH vs. the AKC-CD which is more of a challenge for the dog & its handler. I
have to say the "stick hit!" has worked great on my husband though. So maybe
Tedi just didn't desensitize you right when you were younger. LOL Kathy
www.JoKaySedona.com
>I do understand that is my personal opinion, and I may be wrong. But, I
will never desensitize my dog from being hit. Tedi tried that for years with
me, and I never got used to it.
I was going to say I tried that for years on Tedi, but decided the way I
said it above is going to cause me enough grief.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Evan
------------------------------
Msg: #5 in digest
From: "Rbuffdogs ." <rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 11:46:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
Evan ,
I don't know of any dog of TRULY solid nerves don't need "desensitizing" to
the stick.
We have trained many dogs to the sleeve for both law enforcement , personal
protection and
Schutzhund, none needed "desensitizing" . The dogs working the sleeves
aren't being "beaten'
and they aren't being hurt (at least by any trainer that is worth a damn)
. The stick is
a pressure test to discern COURAGE, not to see how much pain a dog can
endure. If you will
watch some of the BSZS tapes you will see the dogs , many times never are
contacted at all with the
stick. It is rather waved over their heads, to see if they will hit and
hold despite a "threat".
It is not a perfect test, but good. It takes a lot of nerve to run down
that field and go for a "bad guy"
that is acting aggressively and waving a stick at you, lol. Most do
pretty well, some come unglued.
But desensitizing..no, not really, not the good ones. They enjoy the
challenge! It is nothing more than
a big doggie game for them. As far as "putting my will " on a dog, if
some big goon comes at me, I sure as hell don't want my
dog to head for the hills leaving me to fend for myself or my family..I
EXPECT them to step up to the plate and
to defend me with their lives if the situation is dire enough.
Protection, solid , strong nerves and good character,
all part of the breed. The sleeve training is just one way to hone that,
and also to show it off.
Kathy
*"Victory...*Vires et honestas"
On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:13 AM, <ELG440@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> I do not do schutzhund work, not do I ever intend to.
>
> I can't believe making a dog used to getting hit by a stick is a good
> thing. I know, we train them to find bombs and get blown up, but I don't
> like
> that either. I don't like having dolphins carry explosives either.
>
> To me, it is smart not to want to get hit by anything, and I never felt the
> need to put my will on my dog, to get him to do something I want, and not
> what is reasonable for any animal.
>
>
>
> Evan
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Msg: #6 in digest
From: Jen Proud <proudk9@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Walk softly but..............
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 14:19:39 -0600
Wondering here in the frozen wasteland:
So- how many of y'all have been hit YOURSELF with that very stick used in dog
sport, which is both padded and a flexible rod inside?
I have quite a few times-- and Evan I must say it's not an effective weapon on
anything but small insects for doing actual damage and maybe a cat or small dog
would be pained with it. I would rather get hit with "the stick" 10x than
snapped with a wet towel once if that says anything about the physical pain
effects of it!
Ask any children who grew up in a dog sporting home- we all sword fought with
the batons! LOL
The stick is about intimidation and pressure under both threat and contact, not
that the dog will bite despite being placed in pain.
Many dogs will grip with the stick waving but will let loose of the helper when
the contact is made- plus the sticks make quite a whap! noise when they are
struck which will make some dogs loose their nerve- just because contact is
made. Doesn't always so much matter if the contact is a butterfly kiss or
thrown
off a cliff, just the pressure of contact makes them break.
I surely see the anger & sadness & loss people in dog sports feel about this
decision, which sadly is just another manifestation of political correctness
spilling over into our dog community, never mind if it's a disservice to dogs
as
a whole or not, but that people think it's mean to hit someone else with a
stick- maybe if it were another person and maybe if it were a real stick or
even
something that could hurt (let's say even a bruise-- which a baton won't do
without EFFORT I know) someone then maybe I could agree with the decision. We
as
protectors of the GSD have worked so hard to improve upon temperaments and to
keep those good ones strong throughout the generations. What does one think
will
happen, when most of the world's GSDs no longer have their time-honored and
proven method of evaluating their dogs' temperament/work ethic/etc that they
are
all stuck with the "new PCer version" of IPO?
To me it's like taking the gunshot or the umbrella or the scary guy at the end
of our TC... While the rest of the test has it's uses, to take out the "scary"
parts of the TC to make it easier to pass and easier to watch (which I'm sure
is
part of why this rule is coming to be- the spectators who know no better) would
leave us not necessarily knowing if any dog would crack when pressured like
that
unless we had the people, equipment and environment where we were able to do
those portions on our own... But then what would be the point of doing the TC
then if we had to go off on our own to do the "hard parts"??
Jen P & the Pack who think it's a shame that decisions such as these are made
despite the protests from those within the sport and who it really hurts over
the long haul
JayDee's Proud-Haus Shepherds/Proud K911
www.jaydeesphs.com
Committed to the Total Dog you can be Proud of!!!
AKC Breeder of Merit
> On Feb 7, 2014, at 13:13, ELG440@xxxxxxx wrote:
>
> I do not do schutzhund work, not do I ever intend to.
>
> I can't believe making a dog used to getting hit by a stick is a good
> thing. I know, we train them to find bombs and get blown up, but I don't like
>
> that either. I don't like having dolphins carry explosives either.
>
> To me, it is smart not to want to get hit by anything, and I never felt the
> need to put my will on my dog, to get him to do something I want, and not
> what is reasonable for any animal.
>
> I do understand that is my personal opinion, and I may be wrong. But, I
> will never desensitize my dog from being hit. Tedi tried that for years with
> me, and I never got used to it.
>
> I was going to say I tried that for years on Tedi, but decided the way I
> said it above is going to cause me enough grief.
>
> Not that there is anything wrong with that.
>
> Evan
>
>
> In a message dated 2/7/2014 10:39:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> jokaysedona@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
> As
> the puppy progresses, we make them immune to the pain of the "tick hits".
> The pain becomes minimal to them (because they have become desensitized
> since puppies) but the motion of the stick is still intimidating.
>
>
> ===========================================================================>
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------------------------------
End of showgsd-l Digest V8 #111
*******************************
============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2014. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org SUBSCRIPTION:
http://showgsd.org/mail.html
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
============================================================================
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