Awesome post ^_^ That was my point...the dog's with the callouses on the back of their hocks. My old boy Ranger has them (fie, they really ARE like a second paw pad!), and because of that, I'd never breed him, even though he's very very nice in all other aspects. I'm sure that many people don't think that's a good reason not to breed, but I sure do. I don't want to be passing that on to my dogs when I start breeding. It's not correct and it's not pretty...and the majority of the dogs I've been seeing that have that "great underreach", are NOT coming down on the paw pads, they are definitely down on the hock...as has been shown by several pictures posted as of late, etc. I don't want to come off sounding like I know everything, because I don't. I'm essentially a newbie in the breed, and I want to continue learning. My idea of an ideal GSD wasn't the first Shepherd I saw (the first Shepherd I saw was an American line dog). My idea of the ideal GSD was in Derringer (Am/Mex/Intl BIS Ch Jovic-Limar Derringer Noroda, CACIB). When people tell you that your dog's hips are "bad" or the dog looks wobbly and crippled, doesn't that bother any of you? I mean, to me that says something. I know that Joe Schmoe probably knows nothing about the GSD standard, but way back when, when dogs like Troll were around, do you think people would have said that? I know that breeds evolve and change, but really, when you look back at the old Grand Victors and Victrixes, and Siegers and Siegerins...how many of them had a ton of angulation? Our breed is very very different from the rest...but they did not have a ton of angle...not nearly as much as we see today. That is something we put in there (Exaggerated in my opinoin). It was not truly there to begin with. Man, for somebody that wasn't even alive in the time of Troll etc, I certainly am stuck in the past! Bad me. - Jackie ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================