I don't think that Sheila meant to upset anyone, but made an honest statement from her heart. The truth of the matter is that statistically, most of the GSD litters do not come from PC or list members. (well, OK, I admit to not really crunching the data, but I think it will hold up to scrutiny). The only comment I have for Kathy's scenario is that I wouldn't be so quick to label the person supplying the puppies as a BYB. I mean in this case I am sure that is correct, but I personally know of situations that are just as horrific where the puppy suppliers were PC (and even list) members in good standing. They are just as capable of doing dumb things and greedy things and dishonest things. Oh well, I can only hope that these rambuncious boys get 'clipped' and trained...but I doubt that will happen. Most likely we will eventually get a post from Dawn titled "2 abused and starving litter brothers found tied to a tree without food or water". Regards, Cynthia Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx wrote: Yes, but I was tired of arguing. Then I had a phone call from a lady who had previously contacted me for a puppy (didn't have anything and neither did any of our RC members). Her dog had died and this was a referral from a vet where I get my OFA stuff done....anywho.... ....she went to a local BYB with her grown but living-at-home son. They bought home two males, littermates . Now they are seven months, out of control, unsocialized, and they have both bit adult living-at-home son and some of his friends. She called a doggy behaviorist, is>, who wants $700 per dog to come out and "evaluate" the dogs. Oh yeah....$500 of that (each) is for a shock collar. For 7 month olds. (Is that a racket or what????? Note to self, put a blip in puppy packet, which is starting to look like a phone book, discouraging puppy buyers from "come to the house" trainers.) Naturally, BYB (who has been suspended by the AKC for the love of Pete!), won't return calls. This lady wanted to know if I could help (I suggested a reputable class put on by her local AB club, really good trainer, suggested they go one at a time and even suggested adult but living-at-home son get his own place and take one, sorry, couldn't resist!), or if I wanted one (can pigs fly???? WHY would I want an ill tempered out of nothin' by nothin'?). She brought up rescue, but if she mentions the biting (her words, "went after, and "oh yeah, they broke skin"), rescue can't take them. If she tells the truth to our local no-kill shelter, they won't re-home either. Of course they are (still) intact, her adult still living at home son who sounds like a real peach, wouldn't dream of neutering them. So, anyway, this is the experience of JQ Public when they look for a dog. We could all stop breeding tomorrow and this would still go on.... Kathy member GSDCA, DVGSDC three generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================