[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Put in print? -now inbreeding
- From: caggra@xxxxxxx
- To: marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx, GSD0110@xxxxxxx, rockannand@xxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:41:29 -0500
This is exactly right!? And I think what Gary L. was saying was that sometimes
when you do in-breed or line-breed on your own stuff you actually can phase out
some of those bad recessives.? Everytime you breed out you must trust the stud
dog owner to be forthright with any issues they know of in their line or you
must really study your stuff to find it out.? But you will never know or trust
as much as you do with your own stuff.?
When I was a kid I always heard several top breeders such as the Fords, Ricarda
Bartley, and others?say something about breeding out every 3 or 4 breedings,
but otherwise breed in and on what you know.? This is how several great
breeders have set a type for their breedings - one where you can always tell
who bred certain dogs without looking at a catalog.? This, of course, only
works if you are honest with yourself about what positive AND negative issues
you may be dealing with in your own lines.
You can never get rid of every problem.? Those recessives will pop up.? But
that does go with outcrossing or line/in-breeding both.?
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx; GSD0110@xxxxxxx; rockannand@xxxxxxx;
showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 4:14 pm
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Put in print? -now inbreeding
When we get in these 'inbreed - linebred - outcross' discussions it seems it
always get to
"what do you do with your inbreeding "experiments" and how it backfires and
the "cost"
to their pet owners.
What you do with the "experiments" and backfires of an outcross?? Are you
telling us that an
outcross never has it's issues??? What do you do with the results of an
outcross 'experiment'??
There's the rub.......
Either way......we still have to deal with it. I'm not a proponent of either
method but take each
breeding on an indiviual basis......but let's at least balance out the
discussion.......
Common sense would tell you that you never inbreed with a bitch or a male, or
line, that is wrought
with problems that you know of! Therein lies the key. <G> But then....I
wouldn't outcross with
a dog or bitch wrought with problems either if I knew it. KNOW your enemies.
<G>
We're all accountable for everything we do.....inbred, linebred, or outcrossed.
If... as you say
you know what is in your pedigree.....and you "don't breed siblings" to prove
it .....and that a
healthy inbred litter "doesn't prove anything"......can't the same be said for
an outcross??
Nothing....?
The ultimate goal is always a strong vigorous healthy litter as close to the
Standard as possible!!
If you or I opt to always outcross....what is the difference if you double up
on
the same genetic
faults in an outcross? Dogs don't have to be related to carry the same
problem!
You can double up on the same genetic problems when outcrossing.....and as with
doubling
up on it in an inbreeding......you still get the same results.....AND possibly
picked up some other
issues along the way that you had never had before. What's the difference?
Remember...you can also linebreed on good....as well as bad....and that is what
we ALL try
to do whether outcrossing or linebreeding. The ultimate goal is always for
the
good.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
----- Original Message --
---
From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx To: GSD0110@xxxxxxx ; rockannand@xxxxxxx ;
showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:54 AMSubject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Yes, Put it
in print -now inbreeding
I get a little queasy here. On an intellectual level, you are quite correct
Gary. Inbreeding will bring whatever problems that are there to the fore.
But gone are the days w/ big kennels that grew out all of the progeny and
made the tough decisions when one of their close breeding experiments
backfired.
So nowadays, who pays the emotional costs, and in fact, the quite often not
inconsequential monetary costs when an inbreeding experiment goes bad?
Companion people? The newbie excited over show prospect? (And you are quite
correct here too, that it may take several years.)
A lot of us know what is in our pedigrees, good, bad and ugly and we don't
have to breed siblings together or offspring to sire/dam to prove it. Here
too, a healthy small litter doesn't prove anything. It's a numbers game,
and
you'd need a big enough positive sample to prove anything. How many times do
you repeat the experiment?
Knowing what potential bad is in a pedigree doesn't mean you throw a dog out
w/ a recessive for something, it means you go to a line without it and keep
the best from that, and yes, you could very well still have the issue under
the surface, so you're diligent about breeding away from it. Of course, you
could also well bring something else in unintentionally...and there is the
rub. (And that's where this whole conversation started, too, re honesty
between dog owners.)
I'm thinking here about certain breeds that have developed genetic markers
for certain issues. They don't throw out the carrier, especially in breeds
w/
small populations. They breed to a non-carrier, test the progeny and
replace the foundation carrier w/ a non-carrier. That's the goal anyway...
Going back to the recessive "
somethings" and the dominant "somethings".
There are those things like EPI, Epilespy and a few others where I WOULD
throw
the baby out w/ the bath water.
Again, I'm not questioning the science; just inbreeding to verify or
disprove a health issue is present or nonexistent makes me queasy.
Kathy, visit www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds
In a message dated 11/24/2008 9:15:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gsd0110@xxxxxxx writes:
I was speaking of inbreeding to find out where your problems lie.? It does
also cement type but more than that it shows if you have inherent health
issues.? Inbreeding lets you know, to a degree, if it is safe to outcross
your
lines.?Of course, there are issues that can only be determined by letting the
progeny age.? ?
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POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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