When we get in these 'inbreed - linebred - outcross' discussions it seems it always get to "what do you do with your inbreeding "experiments" and how it backfires and the "cost" to their pet owners. What you do with the "experiments" and backfires of an outcross?? Are you telling us that an outcross never has it's issues??? What do you do with the results of an outcross 'experiment'?? There's the rub....... Either way......we still have to deal with it. I'm not a proponent of either method but take each breeding on an indiviual basis......but let's at least balance out the discussion....... Common sense would tell you that you never inbreed with a bitch or a male, or line, that is wrought with problems that you know of! Therein lies the key. <G> But then....I wouldn't outcross with a dog or bitch wrought with problems either if I knew it. KNOW your enemies. <G> We're all accountable for everything we do.....inbred, linebred, or outcrossed. If... as you say you know what is in your pedigree.....and you "don't breed siblings" to prove it .....and that a healthy inbred litter "doesn't prove anything"......can't the same be said for an outcross?? Nothing....? The ultimate goal is always a strong vigorous healthy litter as close to the Standard as possible!! If you or I opt to always outcross....what is the difference if you double up on the same genetic faults in an outcross? Dogs don't have to be related to carry the same problem! You can double up on the same genetic problems when outcrossing.....and as with doubling up on it in an inbreeding......you still get the same results.....AND possibly picked up some other issues along the way that you had never had before. What's the difference? Remember...you can also linebreed on good....as well as bad....and that is what we ALL try to do whether outcrossing or linebreeding. The ultimate goal is always for the good. Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx To: GSD0110@xxxxxxx ; rockannand@xxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:54 AMSubject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Yes, Put it in print -now inbreeding I get a little queasy here. On an intellectual level, you are quite correct Gary. Inbreeding will bring whatever problems that are there to the fore. But gone are the days w/ big kennels that grew out all of the progeny and made the tough decisions when one of their close breeding experiments backfired. So nowadays, who pays the emotional costs, and in fact, the quite often not inconsequential monetary costs when an inbreeding experiment goes bad? Companion people? The newbie excited over show prospect? (And you are quite correct here too, that it may take several years.) A lot of us know what is in our pedigrees, good, bad and ugly and we don't have to breed siblings together or offspring to sire/dam to prove it. Here too, a healthy small litter doesn't prove anything. It's a numbers game, and you'd need a big enough positive sample to prove anything. How many times do you repeat the experiment? Knowing what potential bad is in a pedigree doesn't mean you throw a dog out w/ a recessive for something, it means you go to a line without it and keep the best from that, and yes, you could very well still have the issue under the surface, so you're diligent about breeding away from it. Of course, you could also well bring something else in unintentionally...and there is the rub. (And that's where this whole conversation started, too, re honesty between dog owners.) I'm thinking here about certain breeds that have developed genetic markers for certain issues. They don't throw out the carrier, especially in breeds w/ small populations. They breed to a non-carrier, test the progeny and replace the foundation carrier w/ a non-carrier. That's the goal anyway... Going back to the recessive "somethings" and the dominant "somethings". There are those things like EPI, Epilespy and a few others where I WOULD throw the baby out w/ the bath water. Again, I'm not questioning the science; just inbreeding to verify or disprove a health issue is present or nonexistent makes me queasy. Kathy, visit www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds In a message dated 11/24/2008 9:15:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gsd0110@xxxxxxx writes: I was speaking of inbreeding to find out where your problems lie.? It does also cement type but more than that it shows if you have inherent health issues.? Inbreeding lets you know, to a degree, if it is safe to outcross your lines.?Of course, there are issues that can only be determined by letting the progeny age.? ? ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. 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