In a message dated 1/14/2007 8:12:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Rbuffdogs@xxxxxxx writes: But bloat / torsion, whether gastric or mesenteric sure does seem to follow some lines more than others. Not to say that any large breed dog isn't susceptible, but boy there is such a pervasive problem in some of our lines today. Also to a large degree , a lot of the dogs in the show ring are deep from wither to chest, and narrow , slab-sided......they may? be a predisposition to problems with dogs built like this...but that is anecdotal at this point. Supplements , enzymes, all great, anything to help. Limited vaccine protocol...smart anyway. Interesting there was a study done in the 40s about the high incidence of toxic gut and bloat in dairy cattle...the common denominator was.........line breeding. Either too much and or too close. Interesting parallel, I think. Kathy Tank For what it's worth, I've thought that while there may be environmental triggers, (stress, feeding habits, vaccines), we are dealing with a genetic problem. (Now, is this genetic problem something we'll see on a DNA marker someday or genetics from the standpoint of structure, even <poor???> structure of internal organs? hmmmm?) I think a good diet can remove some of the triggers (there are folks that swear by no corn, no beets, etc.), just as good husbandry practices can remove some of the triggers, (not feeding a dog who is excited, not letting them gulp a bucket of water then eat dinner and run around, keeping horny stud dogs apart from in- season bitches, etc.), all common sense stuff, but if the genetics are there, I think you have the potential for a ticking time bomb. Case in point, you can have someone do everything right, (special) diet, closely controlled environment, pick whatever supplement you'd like and you can always find dogs that bloated following that particular regime. What I WILL not consider too harshly when looking at pedigrees is an old gal's (who has had several litters) stomach/spleen flipping in her final days of old age. I can get my mind around that fact that very poor, just old and worn out muscle tone in that case has much to do with the problem. Kathy member GSDCA, DVGSDC three generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions live here! visit _Pine Hill German Shepherd Dogs_ (http://www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds/) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================