[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Believing everything you read/hear
- From: "Terra Fairburn" <terraf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <ejdegen@xxxxxxx>, <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:53:22 -0600
I personally did not think the original post was going after a certain judge
but talking more about judging; the act of judging dogs at an all breed
show.
I know that my response was based on what may and does happen at dog
shows...the withholding of ribbons. It is an interesting topic. It is
political and controversial.
Not everyone posting wanted the judge tarred and feathered.
I personally think Jackie's question(s) were fine. I do not and did not
think there was a mean spirited demeanor meant.
Some people wanted the name and whatever...but there were some who really
wanted to discuss judges understanding of their breed assignments and how
they decide to with hold a ribbon.
I would like to be involved in the list when you can learn and share and not
be afraid of being criticized or maligned.
I don' remember seeing the name of the judge. I didn't even want it. My
interest was the original question. Stuff like that really happens so...
sorry if I upset anyone. I stand by statement because it was not intended
to insult any particular judge but rather the act. If that never happened
so ... but there are times when ribbons are with held and the exhibitors
have no clue why. That is hardly fair because they get mixed messages. I
think the original thread was worthy of discussion.
Terra Fairburn
-----Original Message-----
From: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
ejdegen@xxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:11 PM
To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Believing everything you read/hear
Can you say "gullible"?
The most amazing part of this thread to me is how many people believed the
statement about what the judge supposedly said and how they wanted to know
who the judge was so they'd never show to her (or hire her). Just because
you see something in writing, or hear it, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. We should
all know that from the pre-election dirt last summer. Rumors are just
that...rumors.
Kudos to Peggy for actually calling the judge and asking her about it.
However, if *I* were the judge, I'd be highly insulted and p-ssed off that
"someone" was making up such blatant lies about me. I hope she can get to
the bottom of the who started this rumor and she files a complaint to AKC
about the person(s).
There are always THREE sides to every story...his, hers, and the truth.
Remember that and don't believe everything you hear or read.
Julie Degen
-----Original Message-----
From: Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: showgsd-l digest users <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:52:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: showgsd-l Digest V3 #557
showgsd-l Digest Sun, 26 Feb 2006 Volume: 03 Issue: 557
In This Issue:
#1: From: "Emilie" <windvane@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Mike Sherman
#2: From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
#3: From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
#4: From: Scharo777@xxxxxxx
Subject: New Puppies
#5: From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
#6: From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
#7: From: Mercergsd1@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: New Puppies
#8: From: "M. Mike Lynch" <cccaudiology@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments (the Ans
#9: From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
#10: From: pumagsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Temperament test questions...........
#11: From: "Terra Fairburn" <terraf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Msg: #1 in digest
From: "Emilie" <windvane@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Mike Sherman
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:24:50 -0800
Can anyone tell me how to contact Mike Sherman?? Phone? Cell? snail mail
address?? please answer in private,
Emilie
WINDVANE KENNELS
Emilie C. Woodruff
5877 Gardi Road
Kamloops,B.C.
Canada V1S 2A1
http://www.geocities.com/windvanekennels
------------------------------
Msg: #2 in digest
From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:27:20 EST
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
In a message dated 2/26/2006 1:36:47 PM Central Standard Time,
MarcatoGSD@xxxxxxx writes:
I was talking to somebody about an all breed show my home club had last
year,
and she was watching the Shepherds being judged. She asked the judge how
they felt about the dogs entered, and her response was that they were all
dysplastic.
****************************************************************************
**
*************************
That judge should not be hired because she is in the ring to judge dogs for
conformation point towards a championship and not play Vet.
To pass judgment and make a statement that dogs are dysplastic without an
x-ray makes this a very poor judge. Some people once they become a judge
think
they walk on water and their word is final. They need to be reminded they
are in
the middle of the ring to find the best dog on that day and that is it. It
is
not brain surgery or rocket science.
Sure wish I knew who that judge was because I want to make sure I don't ever
hire them to do any of my shows.
Lee Brown
------------------------------
Msg: #3 in digest
From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:28:50 EST
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
In a message dated 2/26/2006 1:49:32 PM Central Standard Time,
GrnRam415@xxxxxxx writes:
will make sure to put this person on my "Do
not show" list.
Laura Thomas
http://www.treasureranchgsds.com/
And I want it for my "DO NOT HIRE LIST"
Lee Brown
------------------------------
Msg: #4 in digest
From: Scharo777@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:29:52 EST
Subject: New Puppies
This afternoon, between 2 PM & 4 PM, Susie, our Ch. Schezar's Letter
Perfect
Daughter, gave us 5 fat, healthy babbies. Proud father is Cathlin's Curzon
aka the Black Dog.
All doing well
Carol Moore
------------------------------
Msg: #5 in digest
From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:30:33 EST
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
In a message dated 2/26/2006 1:53:03 PM Central Standard Time,
MarcatoGSD@xxxxxxx writes:
If a judge withholds ribbons, and they don't get anymore
assignments, is it because they are a bad judge, or because people
****************************************************************************
**
********************
That judge is feeding someone a line. I have been hiring judges for AB &
Specailty for about 25 years and I have yet to consider one time if any
judge
has
withheld ribbons. Obviously this is a bad judge who does not get many
assignments and trying to find blame for her poor judging skills.
Lee Brown
------------------------------
Msg: #6 in digest
From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:36:04 EST
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
In a message dated 2/26/2006 3:01:58 PM Central Standard Time,
MarcatoGSD@xxxxxxx writes:
If you want the group, you have to be able to judge everybody, don't you?
****************************************************************************
**
**************
Yes, but you need to be fair to the exhibitors. I do all herding and 8
working breeds. I will never do the working group because there are breeds
in
that
group that I just don't particular care for and would not be able to judge
fairly in my opinion. I also think this GHOST judge you mention should not
be
judging the herding group if she has such a dislike for GSDs.
Who is this judge, if this really happened?
Lee Brown
------------------------------
Msg: #7 in digest
From: Mercergsd1@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:40:21 EST
Subject: Re: New Puppies
Seems that 5 has been the lucky no lately with litter size. My Alvin
daughter
also had a litter of 5 on Valentine's Day 3 girls. 2-sable girls one looks
like is a black sable and 1 all black girl . 2 dark sable males.
Linda
------------------------------
Msg: #8 in digest
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:40:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "M. Mike Lynch" <cccaudiology@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments (the Ans
Hi Mr. M,
The answer, in my opinion, is that it wasn't the popular thing to do and
no
show manager wants to take the "gutless" risk of their show getting a low
entry
or coming up in the red. Sometimes people didn't have courage in the face of
their convictions. But if the situation merits it then damnit.. I WOULD
WITHOLD
.
I have been on both sides of this coin as a Handler and a Horse show
judge. I
had some very nice people bring me an "Airedale" (note use of quotations) to
show at a local show in Alabama. Being a handler, I needed the paycheck but
was
honest enough to tell them I didn't think the dog could be finished. (NO, I
didn't tell them I didn't think he was "purebred"). They said OK but wanted
to
show anyways. So I stripped the dog and entered him and went to the show.
The
AKC judge looked at the dog and looked at me and said, "This ain't no
Airedale".. I kept my head down and just said, "the AKC slip says he is".
She
sent him around, then came back and placed him second in the singleton
entry.
At first I was upset, but as I looked at it, even I thought the dog was not
purebred, let alone "lacked quality". So I understood, the people
understood,
saved their money and bought a new dog.
In the horse show ring, I was judging a pretty prestigious show in
Virgina.
Had about 200 horses entered. Anyone who knows me, knows I'm a very staunch
supporter of Equitation and the Equitation classes (Classes for riding). In
this
one class, I turned to my ring stewards to assure myself, "This is an
equitation
class, right?" She said yes. The horses were out of control, the riders were
sloppy and neither rider in the class was turned out properly for the class.
Actually I was offended and walked up to the ribbon girl and asked for a 3rd
4th
and 5th. Then I placed the class and before I heard any of the Moans of
their
trainers, I went right up to the Microphone and explained why I started the
class 3-5. Which actually received some applause! (but when I got to my
rental
car, my tires were flattened)
It comes up each year at our horse show judges clinic.. to withhold and
not
withhold. Ive been in scenarios where I'm at a local small show and VERY
SINGLE
RIDER has some type of tack or rule infringement.. and yes, I do have the
right
to excuse and disqualify every rider and withold the ribbons. However, our
rules
are written to look at the "big picture"... just for scenarios like that.
Sure,
the rules are there to be enforced, but the reality is Not everyone has the
same
level of sophistication nor has everyone read and interpreted the rules.
Also,
I'm very forgiving in Kid/ Novice Rider classes. You try to withold a ribbon
on
a kids class and see if you make it out alive!!!! :-)
However, I think dog showing should be more like horse showing. I think
they
should actually give ORAL reasoning as to WHY they placed the class.. "And
'I
just like the uther'un better" ain't good enough. Although at horse and dog
shows we are suppose to be looking breeding stock and if you took 3 minutes
to
explain to ringside and the exhibitors WHY you are doing something... rather
that keeping your mouth shut and leaving them to decide the answer... which
is
usually "That Judge is an (*&(* and they didnt know anything... usually goes
a
long way.
Yes, its a "straddling the fence" answer, but we are empowered to make
decisions to interpret the rules, yet you are furthered empowered to make
any
negative scenario a positive one.
Mike Lynch
(and I actually spelled checked this email!!!)
======================
www.BlackHawk-Farms.com
Northern California American Saddlebred Horse Association
Vice President (Class of 2007)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
------------------------------
Msg: #9 in digest
From: LeBrowngsd@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:41:18 EST
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
In a message dated 2/26/2006 3:37:34 PM Central Standard Time,
pmick@xxxxxxxxx writes:
Hey Tom - I looked it up and I called her. She said she didn't say
anything of the kind, that in fact, no one even talked to her. There
were only 6 entered there.........I never heard of any of them (looked
them up, too). She has judged the local specialty where she lives
(Alaska) and has been to at least two of our Nationals...she is still
provisional in the breed but she likes the breed a lot --- maybe this
is just another one of those nasty
****************************************************************************
**
**************************
I know who you are talking about, I sat with her for 3 days in Albany. She
is
very nice and has great knowledge of GSDs. She would never make that
statement, she really likes the breeds. People you know to look her up and
when
she
judges go and at least watch her judge if you don't give her an entry. You
will
be very surprised as her knowledge of GSDs.
Lee Brown
------------------------------
Msg: #10 in digest
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:51:24 -0500
From: pumagsd@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Temperament test questions...........
Can someone please explain to me what the temperament test consist of and
where/when it will be given in Florida ?
------------------------------
Msg: #11 in digest
From: "Terra Fairburn" <terraf@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:51:43 -0600
That is an interesting statement that a judge would know that all the dogs
in his/her ring was dysplastic. I would see this as a professional acting
outside of their area of expertise. I believe that x-rays by qualified
vets, OFA etc could actually make that statement probably after x raying the
animals. It seems more realistic that there were other movement issues this
particular judge did not like. And then there probably are issues of the
breed this judge does not care for. My opinion is that if there is a person
who can tell that a ring full of GSD's are dysplastic, and be right, they
might have a better hobby or career in deciding dysplastic animals than
wasting their time judging GSD's at all breed shows. If a judge withheld a
ribbon on one of my dogs and then admitted it because they thought they were
dysplastic, I am sure I would NEVER show to them again. I spend a huge
amount of money and time ensuring that my show dogs have acceptable hips and
elbows.
I agree that there are ways to with hold ribbons but to do so one must be a
professional that understands the particular breed standard. I attend a lot
of all breed shows and continue to see some poor examples of the breed. I
have not seen a lot of ribbons with held until recently. When I have seen
this I have also noticed that the novice handler usually gets this done to
them rather than the professional handler. Interesting thing is that I have
seen some really bad dogs with professionals. Judges make these decisions
based on their next show more than the right thing to do based again on the
breed standard for all people exhibiting their dogs. I believe an ethical
judge will always do the right thing as he/she sees it on that particular
day. I don't believe interpreting whether a dog is dysplastic is the right
thing to do unless the dog enters the ring crippled. And who would really
do that? Not me!
Terra Fairburn
Keggi Fair
Terraf@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
MarcatoGSD@xxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 1:36 PM
To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Withholding Ribbons and Judging assignments
I was talking to somebody about an all breed show my home club had last
year,
and she was watching the Shepherds being judged. She asked the judge how
they felt about the dogs entered, and her response was that they were all
dysplastic. When she then asked the judge why she didn't withhold ribbons,
the judge
responded in kind "If I withhold ribbons, I don't get assignments."
So, my question is this: If a judge withholds ribbons, and they don't get
anymore assignments, is it because they are a bad judge, or because people
just
didn't like it that a judge dared tell them that their prize winning dog
isn't
worthy of a ribbon? It would stand to reason that if the dog has won before
it is a good dog, but we all know that isn't the case all the time. For all
we
know, the dog only got a ribbon because the judge wanted to continue
judging,
instead of being dumped because they didn't award ribbons to what they felt
was an unqualified group of animals.
Are we possibly depriving ourselves of a truly GOOD judge, just because we
aren't pleased with the fact that they didn't like the dogs that were
presented
to them?
You're welcome to respond privately or to the list, but please, let's not
make this an "all breed judge vs breeder judge" thing.
- Jackie
Marcato Shepherds
Where it's about function, not flash
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End of showgsd-l Digest V3 #557
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POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of
the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues
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POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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