In a message dated 3/10/11 7:29:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, cnnpmm2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: Yes, it is the chicken and the egg thing, Evan. In this case, if the dog and his phenotype are the chicken, and the egg is the official naming of this phenotype/dog, then the chicken definitely came first. The pronouncement by von Stephanitz that Horand shall henceforth be known as a "German Shepherd Dog" didn't change the dog, his phenotype or his genetic makeup. I was trying to point out that what they did with Horand, is the same thing Tina Barber, (who I do not support in any way), did with her Shilohs. She decided to take a dog, and by selective breeding, and maybe bringing in other breeds create a breed she decided to call Shilohs. I know some people do not want to see the relationship to what Max did and what Tin did, but I see it as the same thing. I think Max had a better idea, a stronger personality, (although he ran into a problem when he tried to argue with Adolph), and the results seem better. But, in another hundred years, let's meet again on this List and talk about what happened to the Shilohs. I would think in the late 1800s a lot of those German farmers thought Max a complete fool. After all, the person who owned Hector was glad to sell his dog to the ex military charactor who decided he would for ma breed, start a registry, and replace all the terrible dogs being used for herding for the past couple of hundred years. Evan Ginsburg Asgard German Shepherds http://www.asgardgsd.com/ Where Type Movement and Temperament come together ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2011. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org SUBSCRIPTION:http://showgsd.org/mail.html NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================