Hey, I totally agree with you on the price picture. The guitars you got for 3 to 6 bills years ago, or even today, can certainly sound very sweet. Although, like you say, the mid-range is all but vanishing these days. So it's often either junk or gem. But what really drove me to such a seemingly crazy move was that I just don't know enough to know a gem from a junk box at this point. And I didn't have a knowledgeable guitarist handy who had a month they could give me to go guitar shopping. Believe me, I almost jumped on a few in the 4 to 6 hundred bucks range. But boy, the reviews varied tremendously on them. It put me between a rock and a hard place because I certainly don't know enough to evaluate a guitar. It would be a complete waste of time. And I didn't want to repeat the same old mistake I've made too many times in my life; pinch a penny now only to throw it away in 6 months or a year and spend twice as much to get what I really wanted in the first place. Conversely, I've yet to hear a single thumbs down on anything about the Taylors. A few folks and reviewers mentioned the thin neck, but they all said that the rest of the guitar more than made up for it. And who knows, maybe part of that is simply what you're used to. And be it that I'm not really used to anything, perhaps I'll see the freedom in it. Who knows. Only time will tell. And besides, if it's too thin I'll just nail a 2 by 4 to the back of it and I'll have a nice beefie neck. Ha!
And actually I got a sweet deal on the Taylor from my good old local dealer I've been hooked up with for the last 25 years. When it comes to this high end gear I never see anything even trying to look like a discount, a good deal, or even just a free set of strings thrown in. Nope. those guitars are the same exact price no matter where you go, where you look online, or who you call. But, as always, I said to my dealer, so Bob, what kind of deal are you going to give me on this Taylor? Cause I know you're making a killing on it. And as always he just said, what do you want? I said 10% off. To my surprise he didn't even blink. He just said, okay. So of course that was the last little tasty incentive I needed to fall for it.
Now, let's see. Regarding your Jesus loves me? Nope. I just looked in my jukebox under Chris Belle, and it ain't there. Although I suppose I might have heard it if it was something you posted many years ago. Although I don't know why I wouldn't have kept it. But anyway, that's the answer.
So just let me know when you release your guitar buying guide CD. I'll want the first signed copy. grin.
Tom On 12/20/2011 3:53 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
Well, even taylor is getting in to the low end market now to survive. Everything's made in China, and we know what that means 'grin'. If you really want the absolute best, having a craftman make you a guitar from one of the specialty places is probably the best you could get and it might not cost you too much more than a top end taylor. I've got two takamines, one I gave 3 hundred for in high-school that still plays sweetly, actually sounds better than it did when I got it. I've beat hell out of it, and it's got worn fretts, and grooves in the finger board, but still, in my hands, it's not a struggle. and another toc I got for twice the price with a cut away so I could hit the higher notes, and some nice electronics inside, well, relatively speaking, you know how it is with pick-ups, a piso is a piso. But it plays very nicely, but guess which one sounds the sweetest on a microphone? did you ever hear my jesus loves me, that first test project I did with cakewalk? that was done on that old toc that only cost me 3 bills. Now I'm not comparing it to a 3k taylor by any means, but just saying that because you bought an inexpensive guitar, doesn't mean it'll fall apart in a few years, or is a piece of junk, like you said, maybe they skip some on cosmetics, but some of those cosmetics can actually screw up your sound. all that gloss finish dampens the resonance of the wood, natural unfinished is comming back in to style for that reason, my classical alvarez I just got has a natural finish, no gloss. But all the talk aside, the main thing is that your satisfied no matter how much you spend. It's getting harder to get certain kinds of woods, and our liberal administration is messing with companies, you know what happened to gipson a while back, they shut them down for supposedly using black market wood that wasn't sanctioned from africa 'grin', well, the market is glutted with guitars, and what's happened is that the middle ground is going away and we have lots of low end cheap junk, and the high end but all the work aday middle stuff is being bleed out. Same with electronics, interfaces, keyboard controlers, a lot of this has happened since the glut for the home recording market, you know everybody with a hundred dollar interface and a 300 dollar computer thinks they're a studio, and it's the cheap and nasty and throw away world. But I guess everybody has to start someplace. But you can sure get some fine guitars once you break the 500 dollar barrier, and in the 1k to 2k range there are very nice ones too. But after a point, wood is wood, and glue is glue 'grin'. There are only so many ways they can make those things. and the very best ain't coming out of factories, that's for sure. I know a great luthier, Kenny Martin who's made lots of guitars. Even his 300 dollar instruments made from composit materials play like a dream. But he knows just how to set them up and make them sing. Maybe I'll have him build me one one of these days, save a bundle, and get a first class box. I don't care what it looks like, to a certain extent, as long as it's not hideous 'grin'. Well, enjoy your taylor, and let us know how you like it. At 02:14 PM 12/20/2011, you wrote:Oh, I'm sure I am paying a premium for the name because it guarantees quality. But I'm not a technician, none of the guitar players I know are, and most of the folks at the dealers; especially chains like Guitar ripoff center, know squat. I even asked the tech who did the setup on the Ibanez I'm using. He used to work for Ovation and said you can't go wrong with a Taylor. Then I specifically asked if the same guitar is out there for half the price. He said that with most brands, yes, but very few of even the high end guitars from other big names are as effortless to play and as stable as a Taylor and babbled on some more about stuff that just flew over my head. Then he said that the other problem with finding the same quality guitar for half the price, regardless of what you're looking for, is it's a real crap shoot because when you go down into the mid range there are only two approaches to making guitars. One makes them look like a 5000 dollar guitar for 500 bucks and uses the cheapest materials for construction, and the other puts all the money into actually building the best guitar they can for that price. The result is that those cheap but high quality guitars look cheap because they didn't spend any money on cosmetics. And the result is that only the real knowledgeable guitarist buys the plane Jane while most folks buy a great looking guitar that falls apart in a few years. And they all sound and feel pretty good when they're new; especially to untrained ears and hands. So I figured I'd take the safe route and make a secure investment because in all the reading I did on the subject one of the things often pointed out about the lower priced high quality guitars is that the quality level and assurance is often not so stable at the end of their assembly lines. So you may get a good one and you may not. Luckily I could afford not to gamble. Tom On 12/20/2011 1:58 PM, Chris Belle wrote:Nothing wrong with going first class. I don' think taylors are the last word in guitars by any means, but they certainly have earned great respect in a lot of important circles. As long as you know a lot of what your paying for is the name. At 12:01 PM 12/20/2011, you wrote:Well, it's kind of a long story. But here's the short version. After learning everything I possibly could about acoustic guitars and playing styles I decided that my goal was finger style. Then I went out and about and discovered that no one really knows about finger style or, like me, that there are even guitars specifically designed for it. So, given the fact that I certainly don't know enough and can't play enough to make an informed decision, and the finger style guitars are difficult to find to say the least, I went back to my local dealer and he was able to order me a Taylor GC7 that I can return if I don't like it. Yeah, it probably sounds crazy, but experience has taught me why 95% of people tackling a new musical instrument give up. I believe that a huge percentage is due to playability. And I know that I no longer have the drive or patience to bully my way through to where I want to go. And I'm very thankful that I have the means to make such a seemingly insane purchase. But I hope that the combination of a seductive feel and gorgeous sound will inspire me and have me grabbing my beloved Taylor, or whatever I ultimately end up with, every chance I get. Tom On 12/20/2011 9:41 AM, Chris Belle wrote:So, what did you end up ordering? At 04:09 AM 12/20/2011, you wrote:Well, be it that I want to play finger style pretty much everything about it is closer to classical. While I decided not to go with nylon strings, the guitar I've got coming is a finger style guitar with the wider neck for that little extra spacing between strings to give your fingers room to work. And it comes with ultra light strings to again make it more workable with finger style. So I'll lean more toward what classical guitarists have to say due to the similarities; e.g. working all 5 fingers on the right hand independently. I just marvel when I hear one person playing one guitar and they're able to put out a bass line, rhythm accompaniment, and the melody to boot. Yeah, I'm probably a big dreamer, but what the heck. I might as well go for the gold. Heh! At least a finger style guitar gives you the option to fall back to picking if you want. It ain't so easy the other way around. Tom On 12/20/2011 3:51 AM, Chris Belle wrote:Yes, well, classical technique is always a good place to start. wish I'd paid more attention when my piano teacher was tryin to pound scales in to my rebellious un-interested head when I was a young bratt 'grin'. Well, you know big egos and guitar players, I bet it's well, I know it's the same thing with programming, or horse racing, or anything, that pretends to be a science or technical, there's a world of options and ways to do things, and sifting through what works and what is non-sense is tricky sometimes. Classical guitar is unique in that the strings are much further apart, and the neck is wider. YOu don't do as much bending on nylon strings as they just don't stretch as much. Notice Willie Nelson doing those half bends on that cat-gut guitar he bangs on all the time, but it works for Willie. Your technically not supposed to use a pick on a classical guitar anyway, but folks do for different effects. Kind of like me using a felt pick on a bass to kind of get that finger sound when I need to play fast runs because my bass playing is typical of a guitar player who picks up a bass, I've learned not to over-play, but the technique is different. YOu get a more round, warm tone with fingers on guitar or bass, but without a pick, you can't get those yummy rhythm tracks I was talking about in the last email. But those great finger players, are amazing, Chet, and all his clan, doyle dykes is someone to check out, a texas boy who makes sparks come off the guitar. I do ok with finger style though it's not my strong suite, but have never mastered using finger picks, the kind you put on to finger play but get a louder brighter sound. Growing your fingernails out is a good compromise, but if you ever get a split nail, your kind of screwed. Finger style is beautiful though, I kind of like to do a hybrid sometimes where I hold the pick but use my middle finger and ring finger and pinkie to do some finger work. That way I can strum and pick both, and them some guitar players only use a thumb pick instead of a traditional flat pick, and can play blazing runs that way. Ah, the guitar world is a vast universe. At 01:34 AM 12/20/2011, you wrote:Hey Chris, Yeah, like I said, what a mind blowing experience it was to feel the difference in that guitar after it was set up. I couldn't believe it had turned that gorilla into a sweet little chimp. Maybe it will get my nephew playing again when I give it back to him. Oh, I know pretty much anything goes as far as how we play. I just want to make sure I don't get started with bad left hand positioning. I dealt with carpel tunnel for about 18 months many years ago and it wasn't fun. But luckily, when I finally figured out what was causing it; something that I can't for the life of me remember now, just making one change cleared it up and I've never felt it again. I understand now that the left hand technique varies widely from guitarist to guitarist. It's just funny how every single contradictory YouTube video I've seen on it has someone explaining in elaborate detail why their way is the absolutely indisputable one and only right way. Although I did find an interesting one yesterday from some internationally renowned classical guitarist explaining hand technique and it really made the most sense of all. Like so many things, it just made perfect sense after she explained it. And while in some ways she was saying the same thing some of the other folks were, she just made it so obvious with such simple examples I couldn't help but say, yeah, that's it. I get it. It was all about simply maintaining as natural a hand position as possible. And I'm sure these classical folks have studied the begeebers out of it. So that's good. Thanks for your offer to help. I really appreciate it. Sure, we'll hook up when things calm down after the holidays. And I'll have a little better grasp on what I'm doing by then too. Oh, and your explanation about capos makes sense now that I hear it in practical terms. But I've got a few weeks to go before I'll be playing Hotel California anyway. Ha! Thanks again, Tom On 12/19/2011 8:38 AM, Chris Belle wrote:hey Tom, yes, you discovered that getting your guitar set-up, at least the first time, is very important. YOu don't necessarily have to do it every year, but you'll know if things atart to drift. YOu know, there are so many different ways of playing the guitar, you know Jeff heely played it in his lap laid down. YOu know, if it works, at least to some extent, it's right. but a good guitar instructor can show you the basics and you can modify from there. there is no really wrong way to play the guitar, every which way your fings can go and are possible to go can make a chord and you can bet somebody has used it. Everything from plane jane chording to putting the thumb over the top of the neck wrapping your hand around and catching that last note that way, or using your right hand to tap harmonics like eddy van halen on the song spanish fly, I'm sure you've heard that, amazing what he did with a classical guitar, anything you can imagine being done with a guitar has probably been done. and to quote your old saying, if it sounds good, it is good. I think though that your thoughts of getting a good local instructor are a wise move. Maybe I can call you on the phone and help you a bit too. Let me get past the christmas stuff 'grin'. At 04:37 AM 12/19/2011, you wrote:Hey folks, Here's a little report on my guitar adventure and a couple of questions. I've been doing endless research on the web for weeks now trying to have at least some idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to guitars. And like every instrument, there's a heck of a lot more to it than we think. Although, sheesh, you'd think I would have learned this by now. Oh well. It's been a very interesting adventure. Next I borrowed my nephew's guitar to give it a shot. He hasn't played it in years. So, just like the last time I did the same I decided after only a few days that it was simply too cruel and inhumane punishment and couldn't imagine how guitarists do it. And yes, I knew it should be set up, but not knowing any more than the concept of the process, which made perfect sense, I couldn't imagine it making any real difference on such a guitar gorilla. I think it's an Ibanez, but I keep forgetting to ask. So, before I gave up again I said, what the heck, and brought it in to be set up. I got it back yesterday. All I can say is, holy guitar tech, batman! It felt like they gave me a new guitar. The difference was absolutely mind blowing. Heck, by last night I was whamming through a chord progression, doing quick mutes, and even tossing in a body slap here and there. I couldn't believe it. And my fingers aren't even sore. I can feel that I've been playing, but I wouldn't call it pain. And previous to this setup it was literally impossible for me to play one chord. It took every last ounce of strength I had in my left hand just to get one out of a dozen attempts to kind of, almost, vaguely sound like some kind of a mangled chord. And after that long 5 or 10 minute session I had to quit because my fingers were screaming so loud I couldn't even hear what I was trying to do. So I'm completely sold on annual setups. And most importantly, I finally have some real inspiration to play the guitar. In practical terms, yesterday was my first real day on the guitar. So if I can get a chord progression going in one day I think I should be able to enjoy the guitar, which is what's most important to me. So, needless to say, I'm pumped about it. Okay, and now for the questions. Right now my main focus is on chord fingering. Of course coming from the piano on which we have a linear playing surface wherein we can play the 3 inversions of any chord from top to bottom through out the entire range of the instrument with nothing more than rotating finger positions, the guitar neck is more abstract to me. But I assume there's got to be some logic to it other than memorizing a thousand specific fingerings. I've watched a ton of YouTube videos, and in one of them the guy referred to the most basic chords by a specific name, which I don't remember now. And I'm not talking about major, minor, sevenths, etc. This was specific to the fret fingering and I assume neck position on the guitar. I know how to figure out most chords, but don't see any logic on how to apply it to the guitar. Of course the range you want to play in as well as preventing your left hand fingers from getting tied up into nasty bundles of knots are obvious. But I'm assuming there's more to go on than that and a trial and error method. I've spent the last couple hours googling blind accessible guitar chord charts and just guitar chord charts, and all I got was a bunch of tab sheets for songs with blind in the title, a bunch of stuff from a band with blind in the name, and a ton of purely visual chord charts. So I'm wondering if anyone has or knows where to get a readable chord note/fingering chart. And I'd also be interested in any links to accessible tab sheets. And just as a final note, boy, there seems to be quite a few really good guitar lessons available on DVD now. But it's hard to tell if they're too tied to the video. Although I must say, I've been pretty impressed at how many folks posting YouTube videos realize that just watching someone play isn't going to do much of anything even for a sighted person. So while they use the cameras as an adjunct to the lesson, they still explain in detail exactly what they're doing with every finger, fret, and string. But of course these are just a pile of little snippets. And conversely, I can't believe how many YouTube videos that say: learn how to play insert song name here, are absolutely nothing but a video of someone playing the tune. Not a single word is spoken. I figure these folks just want to watch themselves. My biggest concern at this point is to get my left hand positioned correctly. I know how easy it is for a beginner to make things work in the wrong way when they're just learning the basics. But then it becomes a very painful reality check when they get to the next level and realize that their incorrect hand position makes getting there impossible, so they have to start all over again and go through the difficult process of trying to break a bad habit and learn a new one. I'm actually considering trying to find a true professional instructor, which usually isn't easy, just to get me started and mainly to watch my every move and make sure that every physical aspect of me and the guitar is correct. I believe this is one of the most important aspects of playing an instrument that is most often unknown, overlooked, or simply ignored because we don't think it's that important. Okay. Enough babbling for now. Thanks for listening. Tomster the bombster, guitarist extraordinaire! Heh!For all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at www.affordablestudioservices.com or contact Chris Belle cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Stephie Belle stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx for customized web designFor all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at www.affordablestudioservices.com or contact Chris Belle cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Stephie Belle stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx for customized web designFor all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at www.affordablestudioservices.com or contact Chris Belle cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Stephie Belle stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx for customized web designFor all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at www.affordablestudioservices.com or contact Chris Belle cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Stephie Belle stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx for customized web designFor all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at www.affordablestudioservices.com or contact Chris Belle cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or Stephie Belle stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx for customized web design
