I find that to be a rather arogant, judgmental statement. If a compiler does not care about indentation, then clearly it is not important to the functioning of the code, which is its ultimate purpose. Indentation is almost inherently visual in its benefit (excepting a good braille reader who gets something out of scanning down for changes in margin). Sighted programmers do not use techniques just for the benfit of blind programmers when they are not beneficial to themselves, and I am not under such an obligation to them when working as an individual.
I assure you that users of an application to not give a hoot how the code is formatted: they care what the program does!
JamalOn Thu, 20 May 2010, Soronel Haetir wrote:
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:41:11 -0800 From: Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx> Reply-To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: program-l <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code I see some degree of code formatting as being similar to choosing decent variable names and other such items. Not doing it shows either sloppiness or a lack of knowledge. That doesn't mean you have to be as consistent as a pretty printer would make it but not using indentation at all quickly makes code extremely difficult to follow and would make me question what other best practices the author tossed. Auto-generated code I see as being a different beast entirely. Sure, you might be able to do something more elegantly than the generated code, but you have to weigh that against the time required to do it yourself. A lot of the time that effort can be better spent elsewhere. In a way I see that being more similar to the arguments about whether to even use a compiler or to write things in assembly language. There are (rare) times when it is necessary to go to that level but usually the payoff isn't worth the price. On 5/20/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:An additional point is as follows. VS automatically indents code, but why should code asthetics be judged so heavily on that basis as some people seem to imply (not targeted to anyone in particular)? VS also generates reams of code, particularly the forms designer, when the same thing can be accomplished more succinctly and elegantly in hand crafted code. If someone is going to judge the asthetics of my code, I hope the whole package is considered, not just a particular visual aspect -- one that can be readily changed with an auto formatter. Jamal On Thu, 20 May 2010, Jamal Mazrui wrote:Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 16:17:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> Reply-To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code I code almost exclusively in an editor I have developed, EdSharp, rather than in Visual Studio. Although I worked extensively on JAWS scripts for VS, I find EdSharp more productive for me. I am speaking for myself, and have no problem with others preferring another environment, VS or otherwise. EdSharp does not automatically indent code because it does not know the structure of the language being used. So, indentation has to be managed manually. I have created hotkeys to help with this in various ways. For example, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character on the line. Control+I moves down to the next change in indentation, and Control+Shift+I moves upward. Alt+I announces the current indentation level. There are other hotkeys as well. So, it is quite possible to manually manage indentation in EdSharp, and I do so with the Python language, which requires it. This does involve a significant amount of time and effort, however, which detracts from my coding productivity otherwise. I do try to use mnemonic variable names, and in fact, still prefer Hungarian notation (even though not the .NET convention) because I think it is helpful to know at least primitive data types when reading code. I often use a blank line to sepearate blocks, and make use of comments when there is a risk of confusion about what code structure I am reading. As mentioned, my coding has been as an individual, not part of a team, so I am not constrained the way others understandably are. I think that if a sighted person is truly interested in my code, it is a trivial matter to use an auto formatter to add the indentation style desired. Much more time would be involved in understanding what the code does conceptually than in applying an auto formatter for visual asthetics. I have coded with and without the need to manage indentation, and can say with confidence that indentation is a productivity drain for me. The fact that many blind people have difficulty programming in Python because of the indentation requirement is evidence of a similar experience for them. The most important thing about code is whether it gets the job done, not how pretty it is. Of course, other things being equal, it is nice for code to be pretty as well. I find that they are not equal, however, there is a trade off, and I choose to work in nonvisual ways that work best for what I am trying to accomplish. Different strokes for different folks. Jamal On Thu, 20 May 2010, David Lant wrote:Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:49:10 +0100 From: David Lant <david.lant1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Reply-To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code The thing is, I can't think of any reason why a blind developer should not indent though. You say it causes problems with moving to the start of a line, but that's a feature of the editor, not code indentation. e.g. in Visual Studio, if I hit the home key on a line of code, the first time it will take me to the first non-blank character on that line. the second press will take me to the first column. It's so quick and easy to do it really isn't an overhead at all. And it does this without any JAWS scripts involved. As I've mentioned elsewhere, where the editor automatically formats code as you type it, indentation and formatting doesn't even become a consideration because it happens without your involvement. Even copying and pasting code automatically rearranges the layout to suit the code structures involved. Maybe I'm just spoiled by using Visual Basic. but having come from a COBOL, PL/1 and Natural background, manually indenting code just becomes a habit. Even on the mainframe I used to work on, the Natural editor used to provide structured formatting features. So it's nothing new. I've been programming for 24 years now, and I've never yet had a problem with it. I can understand how indentation might be distracting for a braille user, but depending on the width of the braille display, it wouldn't seem to be a major problem. After all, many source code editors allow code to extend beyond the average width of a braille display so I imagine you'd be scrolling left and right to read long lines too, for example. Indentation wouldn't seem any worse than that to me. Having the ability to quickly scan down code to locate particular structures or blocks would seem advantageous. I have vaguely considered getting a braille display for the added orientation information it might give. I guess I've got on without one for so long now though, it's not likely to happen. If you're just writing code for yourself, then one could say that all the normal good practice guidelines for coding could be ignored. formatting, meaningful variable names, commented code etc would all seem unnecessary. However, I challenge any developer to prove unequivocally that any code they write will never be seen by anyone else. Even in situations when I thought that was the case when writing a quick one-off utility or other, I've always ended up finding another use for it that someone else ends up seeing. So in the end it's just quicker and easier to code in a structured and formatted, well documented and human readable way. Having said all this, I do have to admit that the worst structured and laid out code I ever came across was written by a fully sighted person. It was so arcane and unmaintainable that it seemed like a deliberate ploy by that individual to make themselves indispensible. If they were the only person who could make head or tail of the code, then surely they'd always have a job? Well, auto-formatting and code analysis utilities soon put paid to that. :-) All the best, David David Lant Applications analyst MCPD Enterprise Application Development 3.5 MCTS ASP.NET 3.5, ADO.NET 3.5, Windows Communication Foundation 3.5, Windows Applications 3.5 -----Original Message----- From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui Sent: 20 May 2010 12:47 To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: Amanda Lacy; Doug Lee Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code Personally, as a speech-only user, I find indentation to be of no benefit. In fact, I find it to be an efficiency drain in coding. I cannot simply press Home to go to the start of code on a line. When cutting and pasting code, it has to be adjusted to make indentation align. I know there are hotkey work-arounds for this, but they involve more effort than when indentation is not a concern. Rather than using indentation to help me follow code structure, I find it more productive to use a short in-line comment at the end of a block to remind me what structure it is completing. With that said, I understand that indentation is needed for usability of code by sighted readers, as well as good braille readers (I read braille but am too slow to benefit from a braille display if speech is available). I realize that if I coded in a team, I would always have to indent my code. I also know that if I want a sighted person to work with nontrivial code, I need to use an auto-formatter before sharing it. Just because indentation is optimal for sighted programmers does not mean it is so for blind programmers. They do not use some of our nonvisual techniques, and we do not need to use all their visual techniques. In a language that does not require indentation, an auto-formatter will indent more correctly than manually doing so. Jamal On 5/19/2010 10:08 PM, Amanda Lacy wrote:Am I the only one who thinks indentation makes code harder to read? I focus on the information itself, and when much of my braille display is consumed by space I find it a destraction. I have yet to understand its use. On 5/19/10, Doug Lee<dgl@xxxxxxxx> wrote:For what it's worth, I strongly prefer using tabs and not spaces: Tab width can be varied by the user with no changes to the code, using tabs means one character per indent instead of the average three or four spaces, tabs can be displayed as printable characters like ^I in some editors in case checking indents is a problem for some reason, and one can translate tabs to the normal two spaces before Brailling a listing if necessary. As a rule, if I see spaces for indenting in a program, I imitate what's there if I'm making small changes, but I replace them all with tabs if I'm taking over the file. On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 02:35:45PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote: I had to switch the tabs to spaces in python, so that I could read other code. No idea why edsharp defaults to tabs, and whether you'll be aloud to use spaces, you have to use \40 I believe to get a space. ----- Original Message ----- From: "?yvind Lode" <oyvind.lode@xxxxxxxx> To:<program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:19 PM Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of codeHi: I currently don't have any preferred style of indentation. EdSharp defaults to tab indentation. But I feel it's a waste of cells on my Braille display he he. But I'll probably find my preferred way of indentation the more code I write. Reading source code written by other programmers is probably also a good idea. -----Original Message----- From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Lant Sent: 19. mai 2010 21:13 To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code Hi, Yes, I always indent code. However, this may make it sound like I actually do anything to achieve this. Using Visual Studio, coding in either VBorC#, it is possible to have the editor automatically do all the indenting for you, so you don't even need to think about it. This is especially well implemented for VB, but does appear for C# too. There is no reason at all why a blind developer shouldn't indent code.Itdoesn't add any overhead to reading the code back, as any leading spaces can be ignored by a screen reader. If you really want to know how your code is indented, then I'm sure most if not all of them include a feature totellyou what the indentation of the current line is. If you have a particular layout style that you like, which is different from that used by your editor of choice, you can always go into the Optionsandchange the settings. The simplest thing of course is to change howmanyspaces are indented and whether this is done by adding leading spaces or adding tabs. But there are other options you can play with as well, uptoand including turning off automatic formatting altogether. Sighted people always prefer code to be formatted so they can easilyscanthe layout and both identify the overall structure and locate particular constructs. So whether you're expecting to show code to a sighted person or not, I'd always recommend getting into the habit of indenting and formatting neatly. All the best, David David Lant Applications analyst MCPD Enterprise Application Development 3.5 MCTS ASP.NET 3.5, ADO.NET 3.5, Windows Communication Foundation 3.5, Windows Applications 3.5 -----Original Message----- From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ?yvind Lode Sent: 19 May 2010 16:55 To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [program-l] Indentation of code Hi all: I'm just wondering how you folks indent your code? Do you use indentation at all? I know that indentation is not required for C#, but sighted folks prefer it. Currently I don't have any code to share between sighted and blind programmers. I've just started learning to program and I use C#. I'm just curious and would like some pointers. I'm just trying to develop a good habit of how my code should look like. ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq -- Doug Lee dgl@xxxxxxxx http://www.dlee.org SSB BART Group doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.ssbbartgroup.com The very smart may feel they have nothing to learn from anyone; The very wise will find something to learn from everyone. 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