[program-l] Re: Indentation of code
- From: Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:32:27 -0800
Wouldn't some form of language awareness extension be an advantageous addition?
I keep meaning to get around to making a more accessible emacs (the
cygwin console build works pretty well, but none of the native windows
GUI do as far as accessibility goes).
I love how much control emacs gives over code layout, VS does a pretty
good job, but if you want something other than what it's built-in
style guide goes for you're in trouble. The worst offender in my
experience is the switch statement. I'm honestly not sure there /is/
a good way to format case labels, just less bad ways.
On 5/20/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I code almost exclusively in an editor I have developed, EdSharp, rather
> than in Visual Studio. Although I worked extensively on JAWS scripts
> for VS, I find EdSharp more productive for me. I am speaking for
> myself, and have no problem with others preferring another environment,
> VS or otherwise.
>
> EdSharp does not automatically indent code because it does not know the
> structure of the language being used. So, indentation has to be managed
> manually. I have created hotkeys to help with this in various ways.
> For example, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character on the line.
> Control+I moves down to the next change in indentation, and
> Control+Shift+I moves upward. Alt+I announces the current indentation
> level. There are other hotkeys as well.
>
> So, it is quite possible to manually manage indentation in EdSharp, and
> I do so with the Python language, which requires it. This does involve
> a significant amount of time and effort, however, which detracts from my
> coding productivity otherwise.
>
> I do try to use mnemonic variable names, and in fact, still prefer
> Hungarian notation (even though not the .NET convention) because I think
> it is helpful to know at least primitive data types when reading code.
> I often use a blank line to sepearate blocks, and make use of comments
> when there is a risk of confusion about what code structure I am
> reading.
>
> As mentioned, my coding has been as an individual, not part of a team,
> so I am not constrained the way others understandably are. I think that
> if a sighted person is truly interested in my code, it is a trivial
> matter to use an auto formatter to add the indentation style desired.
> Much more time would be involved in understanding what the code does
> conceptually than in applying an auto formatter for visual asthetics.
>
> I have coded with and without the need to manage indentation, and can
> say with confidence that indentation is a productivity drain for me.
> The fact that many blind people have difficulty programming in Python
> because of the indentation requirement is evidence of a similar
> experience for them. The most important thing about code is whether it
> gets the job done, not how pretty it is. Of course, other things being
> equal, it is nice for code to be pretty as well. I find that they are
> not equal, however, there is a trade off, and I choose to work in
> nonvisual ways that work best for what I am trying to accomplish.
>
> Different strokes for different folks.
>
> Jamal
> On Thu,
> 20 May 2010, David Lant wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:49:10 +0100
>> From: David Lant <david.lant1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code
>>
>> The thing is, I can't think of any reason why a blind developer should not
>> indent though. You say it causes problems with moving to the start of a
>> line, but that's a feature of the editor, not code indentation. e.g. in
>> Visual Studio, if I hit the home key on a line of code, the first time it
>> will take me to the first non-blank character on that line. the second
>> press will take me to the first column. It's so quick and easy to do it
>> really isn't an overhead at all. And it does this without any JAWS
>> scripts
>> involved.
>>
>> As I've mentioned elsewhere, where the editor automatically formats code
>> as
>> you type it, indentation and formatting doesn't even become a
>> consideration
>> because it happens without your involvement. Even copying and pasting
>> code
>> automatically rearranges the layout to suit the code structures involved.
>> Maybe I'm just spoiled by using Visual Basic. but having come from a
>> COBOL,
>> PL/1 and Natural background, manually indenting code just becomes a habit.
>> Even on the mainframe I used to work on, the Natural editor used to
>> provide
>> structured formatting features. So it's nothing new. I've been
>> programming
>> for 24 years now, and I've never yet had a problem with it.
>>
>> I can understand how indentation might be distracting for a braille user,
>> but depending on the width of the braille display, it wouldn't seem to be
>> a
>> major problem. After all, many source code editors allow code to extend
>> beyond the average width of a braille display so I imagine you'd be
>> scrolling left and right to read long lines too, for example. Indentation
>> wouldn't seem any worse than that to me. Having the ability to quickly
>> scan
>> down code to locate particular structures or blocks would seem
>> advantageous.
>> I have vaguely considered getting a braille display for the added
>> orientation information it might give. I guess I've got on without one
>> for
>> so long now though, it's not likely to happen.
>>
>> If you're just writing code for yourself, then one could say that all the
>> normal good practice guidelines for coding could be ignored. formatting,
>> meaningful variable names, commented code etc would all seem unnecessary.
>> However, I challenge any developer to prove unequivocally that any code
>> they
>> write will never be seen by anyone else. Even in situations when I
>> thought
>> that was the case when writing a quick one-off utility or other, I've
>> always
>> ended up finding another use for it that someone else ends up seeing. So
>> in
>> the end it's just quicker and easier to code in a structured and
>> formatted,
>> well documented and human readable way.
>>
>> Having said all this, I do have to admit that the worst structured and
>> laid
>> out code I ever came across was written by a fully sighted person. It was
>> so arcane and unmaintainable that it seemed like a deliberate ploy by that
>> individual to make themselves indispensible. If they were the only person
>> who could make head or tail of the code, then surely they'd always have a
>> job? Well, auto-formatting and code analysis utilities soon put paid to
>> that. :-)
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> David
>>
>> David Lant
>> Applications analyst
>>
>> MCPD Enterprise Application Development 3.5
>> MCTS ASP.NET 3.5, ADO.NET 3.5, Windows Communication Foundation 3.5,
>> Windows
>> Applications 3.5
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>> Sent: 20 May 2010 12:47
>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Cc: Amanda Lacy; Doug Lee
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code
>>
>> Personally, as a speech-only user, I find indentation to be of no
>> benefit. In fact, I find it to be an efficiency drain in coding. I
>> cannot simply press Home to go to the start of code on a line. When
>> cutting and pasting code, it has to be adjusted to make indentation
>> align. I know there are hotkey work-arounds for this, but they involve
>> more effort than when indentation is not a concern. Rather than using
>> indentation to help me follow code structure, I find it more productive
>> to use a short in-line comment at the end of a block to remind me what
>> structure it is completing.
>>
>> With that said, I understand that indentation is needed for usability of
>> code by sighted readers, as well as good braille readers (I read
>> braille but am too slow to benefit from a braille display if speech is
>> available). I realize that if I coded in a team, I would always have to
>> indent my code. I also know that if I want a sighted person to work
>> with nontrivial code, I need to use an auto-formatter before sharing it.
>>
>> Just because indentation is optimal for sighted programmers does not
>> mean it is so for blind programmers. They do not use some of our
>> nonvisual techniques, and we do not need to use all their visual
>> techniques. In a language that does not require indentation, an
>> auto-formatter will indent more correctly than manually doing so.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>> On 5/19/2010 10:08 PM, Amanda Lacy wrote:
>>> Am I the only one who thinks indentation makes code harder to read? I
>>> focus on the information itself, and when much of my braille display
>>> is consumed by space I find it a destraction. I have yet to understand
>>> its use.
>>>
>>> On 5/19/10, Doug Lee<dgl@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> For what it's worth, I strongly prefer using tabs and not spaces: Tab
>>>> width can be varied by the user with no changes to the code, using
>>>> tabs means one character per indent instead of the average three or
>>>> four spaces, tabs can be displayed as printable characters like ^I in
>>>> some editors in case checking indents is a problem for some reason,
>>>> and one can translate tabs to the normal two spaces before Brailling a
>>>> listing if necessary. As a rule, if I see spaces for indenting in a
>>>> program, I imitate what's there if I'm making small changes, but I
>>>> replace them all with tabs if I'm taking over the file.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 02:35:45PM -0600, Tyler Littlefield wrote:
>>>> I had to switch the tabs to spaces in python, so that I could read
>>>> other code. No idea why edsharp defaults to tabs, and whether you'll
>>>> be aloud to use spaces, you have to use \40 I believe to get a space.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "?yvind Lode"
>>>> <oyvind.lode@xxxxxxxx>
>>>> To:<program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>
>>>>> I currently don't have any preferred style of indentation.
>>>>> EdSharp defaults to tab indentation.
>>>>> But I feel it's a waste of cells on my Braille display he he.
>>>>> But I'll probably find my preferred way of indentation the more code I
>>>>> write.
>>>>> Reading source code written by other programmers is probably also a
>>>>> good
>>>>> idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of David Lant
>>>>> Sent: 19. mai 2010 21:13
>>>>> To: program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Indentation of code
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I always indent code. However, this may make it sound like I
>>>>> actually
>>>>> do anything to achieve this. Using Visual Studio, coding in either VB
>> or
>>>>> C#, it is possible to have the editor automatically do all the
>>>>> indenting for
>>>>> you, so you don't even need to think about it. This is especially well
>>>>> implemented for VB, but does appear for C# too.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no reason at all why a blind developer shouldn't indent code.
>> It
>>>>> doesn't add any overhead to reading the code back, as any leading
>>>>> spaces can
>>>>> be ignored by a screen reader. If you really want to know how your
>>>>> code is
>>>>> indented, then I'm sure most if not all of them include a feature to
>> tell
>>>>> you what the indentation of the current line is.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have a particular layout style that you like, which is
>>>>> different from
>>>>> that used by your editor of choice, you can always go into the Options
>> and
>>>>> change the settings. The simplest thing of course is to change how
>> many
>>>>> spaces are indented and whether this is done by adding leading spaces
>>>>> or
>>>>> adding tabs. But there are other options you can play with as well, up
>> to
>>>>> and including turning off automatic formatting altogether.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sighted people always prefer code to be formatted so they can easily
>> scan
>>>>> the layout and both identify the overall structure and locate
>>>>> particular
>>>>> constructs. So whether you're expecting to show code to a sighted
>>>>> person or
>>>>> not, I'd always recommend getting into the habit of indenting and
>>>>> formatting
>>>>> neatly.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> David Lant
>>>>> Applications analyst
>>>>>
>>>>> MCPD Enterprise Application Development 3.5
>>>>> MCTS ASP.NET 3.5, ADO.NET 3.5, Windows Communication Foundation 3.5,
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> Applications 3.5
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of ?yvind Lode
>>>>> Sent: 19 May 2010 16:55
>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [program-l] Indentation of code
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just wondering how you folks indent your code?
>>>>> Do you use indentation at all?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that indentation is not required for C#, but sighted folks
>>>>> prefer it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently I don't have any code to share between sighted and blind
>>>>> programmers.
>>>>> I've just started learning to program and I use C#.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm just curious and would like some pointers.
>>>>> I'm just trying to develop a good habit of how my code should look
>>>>> like.
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
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>>>> --
>>>> Doug Lee dgl@xxxxxxxx http://www.dlee.org
>>>> SSB BART Group doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
>>>> The very smart may feel they have nothing to learn from anyone;
>>>> The very wise will find something to learn from everyone. (7/14/01)
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--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@xxxxxxxxx
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