William,
You are entirely correct that damp is the bigger threat to any colony. So
the advice re floors is not entirely do or don't but depends on individual
hive and circumstances.
Regarding your own hive, don't disturb the colony is the best strategy, and
especially so as they're thriving. If they do really dislIke the mesh they
will propolise it over!
WBCs are really well insulated, very much more so than Nationals, so you
are unlikely to get condensation issues. It may even be that due to the
double walls, it's trickier for bees to use their normal system of fanning
air / humidity in / out through the entrance and they may find the mesh
floor is ok.
So if it ain't broke, don't fix it 8)
Paul
On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 10:59 William Spray, <whpspray@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I was interested and surprised to read the ‘mesh bad; solid good’ views on
the thread. I picked up the impression when gearing up for my first winter
a few months ago that damp was a greater threat to the colony than cold and
so a mesh floor was better. I thought that I had read this on the group and
so acted accordingly, but it must have come from a conventional source.
Anyway, the colony which Paul very kindly installed seems to be thriving in
its WBC, so no harm done. But I’ll put in a solid floor if they’ll like
that better.
Will Spray
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Apr 2021, at 19:20, Oxnatbees <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In general, solid floors are good. Mesh floors bad. Because they disrupt
the preferred ventilation of the bees', who are attempting to maintain
constant brood temperature and high humidity. So the bees need to burn more
fuel to keep a hive with an (open) mesh floor going.
But.
National hives are very large, so unless you are turbocharging your colony
by stimulative feeding / buying fecund queens, like a commercial beek,
there may be too few bees to keep its walls warm. In some climates. Cold
walls --> condensation --> mould, chalk brood.
So you get major influencers like Roger Patterson (50 yrs experience,
Nationals) campaigning AGAINST mesh floors, BUT he runs huge commercial
colonies.
So I don't know the answer for Nationals for sure. I suspect solid floors
are fine but I am keen to learn how others find them in practice, rather
than my theory...
Paul
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, 19:07 Will H, <whanrott@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Kerry,
I use the extra deep Commercial brood boxes. They're almost the same
dimensions as the Nationals but there are a few small dimensional
differences. The National and Commercial boxes can be used together because
the important dimensions (bee space; horizontal length and width) are the
same. Thorne sell solid floors for Commerical hives
<https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product%2Fsearch&filter_name=commercial+solid+floor>.
Just put the entrance block in so that it seals the exit.
I haven't drilled these holes in my hives but I'd be interested to find
out how you get on. Commercial hives have runners so the frames face only
one way, so you'll need to choose between 'warm way' and 'cold way' before
you drill.
I don't know about a solid crown board, but I used a regular board with a
feeder eke <https://www.thorne.co.uk/national-feeder-eke> on the top. I
stapled hessian into the eke to create a loose floor. It then it sits on
top of the crown board, filled with insulation just like a Warre. I did
less well with external insulation, but that's another topic.
Will
------------------------------
*From:* oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Kerry Dawson <kerrydawson99@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* 07 April 2021 17:59
*To:* oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [oxnatbees] Converting a National to a Natural?
Hi Everyone,
I have a TBH and a Golden hive and I am toying with the ideal of getting
an extra-deep National brood box and an extra-shallow super, supplied by
Heather Bell Bees in Cornwall, where I purchased my TBH. I plan to add two
entrance holes to the side of the brood box (not unlike my TBH and GH). I
like the idea of having standard size parts, such as the frames, easily
available to replace and this company offers the very shallow super for
taking small amounts of honey.
I have asked Heather Bell if they supply solid floors, without mesh –
they don’t. So, I asked this question and wondered what the group thought
about the reply:
*Q:** I’m planning to add entrance holes into the side of the brood box
(bit like your TBH which I already have) so for the floor maybe the thick
crown board without a central hole would work instead. Are you able to
supply without a hole?*
*A: **Although colonies will use an **additional **upper entrance as you
describe, it must be an additional entrance. A bottom entrance is
necessary so bees can remove dead bees easily and a solid floor is just a
bad idea; reducing ventilation, encouraging damp, increasing Varroa build
up. That's why we don't use or supply them.*
From my experience (only 2 years), my TBH with holes and my GH with holes
have never had a build up of dead bees. In the case of the TBH there is a
horrible build up of debris beneath the mesh floor, which the bees can’t
clean up and so they rely on me to do it causing more disturbance than I
prefer (I plan to get rid of this just as soon as I am able).
Has anyone done this conversion before and is a bad idea? Eric, I think
you might have?
Kerry