Thanks for your responses. It seems like we have had mixed experiences, which
is not a surprise 😊. I feel that the mesh floor is a very unnatural addition
to the hive and doesn’t allow the bees to behave as they would if they had full
housekeeping access to the board below. I’m thinking that a sliding or hinged
solid floor, without a mesh, might be the way to go in my TBH. Might take a
while to implement as the colony is off to a good start this year, after almost
failing last year (following two swarms).
Kerry
From: Helen Nunn<mailto:helenmaynunn@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 07 April 2021 21:30
To: oxnatbees<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Oxnatbees<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [oxnatbees] Re: Converting a National to a Natural?
Both my TBHs have mesh floors, but with a board underneath which I can (or
could) lower in very hot weather. However, last summer one of the hives (the
one with my successful six-year-old colony) had propolised the board so it was
stuck up to the mesh floor, like Gilliane describes. So that was that! My other
hive has had a very mixed history, with die-outs from a variety of reasons, but
not over winters. I haven't associated them with the floor, which is anyway
usually up closed. I think I like the mesh as I can see from the debris where
the cluster is, but I'm not a bee!
Does that help??
Helen
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 at 21:22, Gilliane Sills
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I keep havering about this one. I have a mesh floor in the centre of my top
bar hive but I keep the slider in all year round - that is to say, the bees
have propolised it in place and I've stopped unsticking it. When I bought a
new tbh three years ago, I removed the mesh floor and replaced it with a solid
floor. However, last year and the year before, the bees in this hive didn't
survive in to the winter. The year before last, the colony had grown very
quickly from a prime swarm and it swarmed again in late summer and the colony
that was left dwindled and died out - perhaps the virgin queen didn't mate - I
don't know. Last year, I hived a cast and initially the bees built comb with
brood, but the colony came under serious wasp attack at the end of the summer
and eventually the bees absconded. I've prepared the hive again for occupation
this year and I've restored the mesh floor to make the hive conditions closer
to the conditions of the very successful original tbh. I've no reason to think
the solid floor contributed to the problems of the colonies the previous two
years and I still don't know which I think is better - solid or mesh. Arguably
the solid floor is closer to the natural environment, but with a mesh floor,
the bees could close the mesh with propolis if they didn't like it, and having
a partial mesh floor means it's not too big an area for them to close if they
want to.
Sorry - no help to you Kerry!
Gilliane
On 07/04/2021 19:20, Oxnatbees wrote:
In general, solid floors are good. Mesh floors bad. Because they disrupt the
preferred ventilation of the bees', who are attempting to maintain constant
brood temperature and high humidity. So the bees need to burn more fuel to keep
a hive with an (open) mesh floor going.
But.
National hives are very large, so unless you are turbocharging your colony by
stimulative feeding / buying fecund queens, like a commercial beek, there may
be too few bees to keep its walls warm. In some climates. Cold walls -->
condensation --> mould, chalk brood.
So you get major influencers like Roger Patterson (50 yrs experience,
Nationals) campaigning AGAINST mesh floors, BUT he runs huge commercial
colonies.
So I don't know the answer for Nationals for sure. I suspect solid floors are
fine but I am keen to learn how others find them in practice, rather than my
theory...
Paul
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, 19:07 Will H,
<whanrott@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:whanrott@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Kerry,
I use the extra deep Commercial brood boxes. They're almost the same dimensions
as the Nationals but there are a few small dimensional differences. The
National and Commercial boxes can be used together because the important
dimensions (bee space; horizontal length and width) are the same. Thorne sell
solid floors for Commerical
hives<https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product%2Fsearch&filter_name=commercial+solid+floor>.
Just put the entrance block in so that it seals the exit.
I haven't drilled these holes in my hives but I'd be interested to find out how
you get on. Commercial hives have runners so the frames face only one way, so
you'll need to choose between 'warm way' and 'cold way' before you drill.
I don't know about a solid crown board, but I used a regular board with a
feeder eke<https://www.thorne.co.uk/national-feeder-eke> on the top. I stapled
hessian into the eke to create a loose floor. It then it sits on top of the
crown board, filled with insulation just like a Warre. I did less well with
external insulation, but that's another topic.
Will
From: oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:oxnatbees-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on
behalf of Kerry Dawson
<kerrydawson99@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:kerrydawson99@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: 07 April 2021 17:59
To: oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:oxnatbees@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [oxnatbees] Converting a National to a Natural?
Hi Everyone,
I have a TBH and a Golden hive and I am toying with the ideal of getting an
extra-deep National brood box and an extra-shallow super, supplied by Heather
Bell Bees in Cornwall, where I purchased my TBH. I plan to add two entrance
holes to the side of the brood box (not unlike my TBH and GH). I like the idea
of having standard size parts, such as the frames, easily available to replace
and this company offers the very shallow super for taking small amounts of
honey.
I have asked Heather Bell if they supply solid floors, without mesh – they
don’t. So, I asked this question and wondered what the group thought about the
reply:
Q: I’m planning to add entrance holes into the side of the brood box (bit like
your TBH which I already have) so for the floor maybe the thick crown board
without a central hole would work instead. Are you able to supply without a
hole?
A: Although colonies will use an additional upper entrance as you describe, it
must be an additional entrance. A bottom entrance is necessary so bees can
remove dead bees easily and a solid floor is just a bad idea; reducing
ventilation, encouraging damp, increasing Varroa build up. That's why we don't
use or supply them.
From my experience (only 2 years), my TBH with holes and my GH with holes have
never had a build up of dead bees. In the case of the TBH there is a horrible
build up of debris beneath the mesh floor, which the bees can’t clean up and so
they rely on me to do it causing more disturbance than I prefer (I plan to get
rid of this just as soon as I am able).
Has anyone done this conversion before and is a bad idea? Eric, I think you
might have?
Kerry
--
from Gilliane Sills
The Map House
Vernon Avenue
Oxford
OX2 9AU
01865 721644