I think it would be more accurate to say that developers don't really have time to figure out how the database really works, and dba's don't really have time to figure out how the developers are programming. My thoughts on the agile programming technique that someone mentioned here is it adds more in confusion than its worth in speed. -----Original Message----- From: oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Still Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 12:22 PM To: robertgfreeman@xxxxxxxxx Cc: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Why an organization would need an enterprise DB team On 3/19/07, Jared Still <jkstill@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: "Why is data modeling needed? The main reason is that systems developers are so bad at building files and databases". George Tilmann - A Practical Guide to Logical Data Modeling - McGraw Hill 1993 That hasn't changed much in 14 years. Much of this ignorance of how an efficient (as in scalable) database should work is due to the Microsoft 'black box' programming methods. Developers don't know many of the building blocks they use really work, and are not encourage to find out how things work. You don't need to know all the internals, but you do need some idea of how things work to use them efficiently. Just to be clear on this, I think it would be great if all developers had an interest in how the database work, and the hows and whys of database design. The problem just seems to be that they are often taught that it is not necessary. -- Jared Still Certifiable Oracle DBA and Part Time Perl Evangelist ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. Thank you. ==============================================================================