However it sounds like it shows some intergrade characteristics with a
baltimore oriole, so does that mean you can make a .25 check on your list?
Barbara
On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Alan Contreras <acontrer56@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
When you saw it we all knew it could not be an Orchard.
Alan Contreras
Eugene, Oregon
acontrer56@xxxxxxxxx
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 7, 2016, at 7:22 AM, 5hats@xxxxxxxx wrote:
Well (!). It's nice to see that even those who are considered experts
admit to a certain amount of guesswork about this bird. The rest of us
shouldn't feel so bad. The toughest thing on me is that three times I
chased what for years has been my nemesis bird, finally saw it, and then
find out its status is exactly as it was before. But it has been a
learning experience and I thank everyone who provided insights on the
plumage features of this oriole.
Darrel
------------------------------
*From: *"Tim Janzen" <tjanzen@xxxxxxxxxxx>
*To: *"OBOL" <obol@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Thursday, January 7, 2016 12:03:49 AM
*Subject: *[obol] Re: Hatfield Marine Science Center Oriole Pictures
Dear Bing,
This bird was discussed fairly extensively today on ID Frontiers. Some
major experts including Peter Pyle and Al Jamarillo (who wrote a book on
blackbirds and orioles) have weighed in. Their consensus is that the bird
is a Bullock's Oriole. I will quote from their comments as follows:
Al Jamarillo: "One thing that has not been talked about is the bill
pattern. Oriole species differ in their bill pattern, sometimes this is a
really good identification clue. However, bill patterns can be hard to
assess in photos where there is strong light that may cause reflection or
"shine" on the bill.
"Northern" orioles have a pretty unique bill pattern where the mandible
is essentially all gray, with a small amount of dark on the gonys. The gray
of the bill INVADES the maxilla. In other orioles the maxilla is all dark.
The invasion of the gray to the maxilla creates a bill pattern in
Bullock's-Baltimore that looks like a largely gray bill with a dark
triangle shaped area on the base of the mandible, and sometimes a bit of
dark on the gonys; such that with an eye squint it looks like a bill where
there is a diagonal gray stripe from mandible base to outer half of
maxilla. On Orchard the bill is dark on maxilla, and usually substantially
dark on tip of mandible, so it looks like a dark bill with a gray wedge at
the base of mandible. Some have a bit of gray around the nostrils.
These differences are hard to describe in words, but they are quite
consistent. Check out photos of other orioles, like Altamira vs
Streak-backed vs Spot-breasted vs Hooded and you can see how bill pattern,
as well as shape varies such that many of these birds you could separate on
bill alone! On the whole what I see on the bill of this bird in Oregon is
of a "Northern" Oriole, not an Orchard.
Having studied the hybrid situation in W Kansas, as an assistant to
Jim Rising some moons ago, it is pertinent to note that the hybrid zone
between Bullock's and Baltimore is narrow but significant. In the hybrid
zone, no bird we saw was pure. Birds across the hybrid zone are clinal on
average, more Bullock's like in the west part of the zone, Baltimore like
in the east. However, all sorts of variations occur. What these birds look
like as first year, or winter females is really unknown at this point. Molt
of the hybrids is even wonky, with the suggestion that some hybrids may
have a mixed molt between the differing strategies used by Bullock's and
Baltimore.
The features that are not Bullock's like in this bird, can be accounted
for by suggesting it may have mixed genes. Again, remember we are not
talking about intermediate, F1 type hybrids, but a gene soup...sort of like
Puget Sound Gull.
The last photo (17) shows some interesting features. The inner
greater coverts are distinctly grayish. That is a definite Bullock's
feature. The short tail and fat body, again Bullock's. Bill - mandible is
essentially all pale, with it bleeding into the maxilla, definite
Bullock's-Baltimore. Dark lores, dark eyeline, and distinct supercilium.
All Bullock's."
Peter Pyle's latest comments: "Thanks to Wayne Hoffman's more indicative
images I agree now with a first-winter bird that has replaced all of the
wing coverts as well as the inner two tertials (s8-s9). However, all of
what I stated earlier applies to formative birds as well as basic - both
HOOR and BAOR undergo most/all of the preformative molt in the Mexican
monsoon area and return as first-spring birds in more-worn plumage than we
are used to. Formative males usually have black in the throat by now and,
along with its perceived small size and thin bill, the Newport Oregon bird
(a NEOR?) appears to be a first-winter female. This bird could be within
range of a first-winter female BUOR with a later molt or some other plumage
influence. I agree with Al Jaramillo and others that the bill shape and
size does not represent OROR. I'm not as sure whether or not a bit of BAOR
introgression can be excluded."
Peter Pyle's first comments: "This appears to be an adult female, not a
first-winter bird, which may be part of the problem. I base this on the
even look to the wing coverts (i.e. no molt limits), blackish rather than
brownish primary coverts, and broad and unworn-looking rectrices. We
typically do not see fresh basic plumages north of the border in either
Bullock's or Orchard orioles (both molt in the Mexican monsoon area in
Aug-Sep and are worn by the time they return in spring). As such I think it
may be just fine for a fresh adult female BUOR. If that is a black feather
in the throat it could even be something that adult female BUORs can
occasionally show, especially if the feather was lost and replaced outside
of normal pigment-deposition cycles. It could also have a dash of Baltimore
Oriole in it's DNA to explain the extensive orange but the bill seems thin
and I'd think we'd see more dark in the head on an adult female, etc., so
I'd go with BUOR."
Julian Hough: "The vagaries of color and light withstanding, and a lack
of recent experience with Bullock's, my feeling is the bird is a Bullock's
because:
- the bird seems to have a more contrasting head pattern with a
diffuse paler super and darker crown
- to me, the wing bars of Orchard oriole almost look like two parallel
lines, vaguely recalling those of Bay-breasted Warbler. The Newport bird
has the outer webs of the greater coverts broadly edged white which doesn't
create the same impression to my eyes and better fits with Bullock's.
- the broad white edgings to the primaries seem obvious and a better
fit with Bullock's (not sure this is a feature, but Orchard's seem to be
less marked here?)
- the dark centers to the median coverts are saw-toothed - diagnostic
(?) of Bullock's
Hard to judge the size and the subtle plumage colors (yellow and green in
Orchard versus yellow and grey in Bullock's) and light in photos, but for
me, the plumage marks seem to add up to be more indicative of Bullock's
rather than Orchard."
Chris Hill: "Maybe this has been said before and I missed it, but even
granted vagaries of light and photo processing… It’s orange. Even given
David Irons’ comments about how it looked much less orange in life, this
southeastern birder cannot turn those images into a Orchard Oriole in my
mind. Just does not compute. I guess I’m in the BUOR with some BAOR
admixture camp."
Terry Bronson: "I see Orchard Orioles regularly in West Virginia, where
they are very common. Bullock's Oriole has never been recorded here, and I
have virtually no experience with that species.
I would NOT call this an Orchard Oriole for the following reasons:
1. To me Orchard Oriole is a "cute" bird; this bird in some of the photos
has a "fierce" appearance.
2. Orchard Orioles are less bulky than House Sparrows,which are less bulky
than Bullock's Orioles. According to the Sibley guide, average weight for
Orchard is 0.67 oz. (19 grams); average weight for House Sparrows is 0.98
oz. (28 grams); average weight for Bullock's is 1.3 oz (36 grams). In the
photos that include a House Sparrow, the oriole is clearly a much bulkier
bird.
3. Although Bullock's generally show much white or dirty white on the
underparts below the breast, this is variable. James D. Rising in his Birds
of North America Online account of Bullock's states: "Yellow in Bullock’s
Oriole extremely variable, ranging from lemon yellow to bright orange
yellow, similar to color of Baltimore Oriole; at least some of this
variability reflects diet (JDR)."
4. A couple of the photos appear to show faint streaking on the clearly
gray back, which is a trait of Bullock's. Orchards do not show such
streaking and the back is more greenish than gray.
A vagrant female Hooded Oriole, which looks very much like a female
Orchard Oriole, is a possibility in Oregon, according to the Sibley range
map.
However, at 0.84 oz. (24 grams), it is also less bulky than a House Sparow,
So I'd have to say this appears to be a Bullock's Oriole."
I also posted a message to ID Frontiers last night about the bird as below
shortly after Dave Irons posted a message to that list. As you mentioned,
it should be possible to get an even more accurate measurement of the
bird's length than what I came up with. All one would need to do would be
to measure the width of the base of the bird feeder that the bird is
perched on in Wayne Hoffman's photo at
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/954-newport-oregon-oriole-jan-1-2-2016?id=13469.
Even if the bird is a little shorter than a Red-winged Blackbird, that
doesn't make it an Orchard Oriole. The NG Field Guide to the Birds of N.
America says that the average length of a Bullock's Oriole is 8 1/4 inches
and that the average length of a Red-winged Blackbird is 8 3/4 inches.
Sibley's guide gives the average length of a Bullock's Oriole as 9 inches.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Janzen [mailto:tjanzen@xxxxxxxxxxx ;<tjanzen@xxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 12:56 AM
To: 'David Irons'; 'BIRDWG01@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <BIRDWG01@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>'
Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Newport, Oregon Oriole
Dear Dave,
When I looked at these photos earlier this afternoon after you posted the
link to them on OBOL my impression was that the bird is a Bullock's
Oriole. In my opinion the bird seems to be a little too big to be an
Orchard Oriole. This bird was discussed this evening at Portland Audubon's
Birder's Night and several of the birders there who had seen the bird
thought that it was on the small side for a Bullock's Oriole. However, in
looking at your photos of the bird, particularly the one at
http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/thumbnails/954-newport-oregon-oriole-jan-1-2-2016?id=13463
where the oriole is seen with a House Sparrow, it appears to me that the
ratio of the lengths of the two birds is about 1.35:1. A House Sparrow
should be about 6 1/4 inches long. Therefore the length of the oriole
should be about 8 1/2 inches. This would be consistent with the length of
an average Bullock's Oriole. In addition, the bill doesn't seem to be
quite as decurved as I would expect for an Orchard Oriole. The contrast
between the grayish green back and the orange-green rump also seems to
point in favor of the ID as being that of a Bullock's Oriole. If this an
Orchard Oriole, it seems to have more orange tones in it than I would
expect on an Orchard Oriole. The orange/yellow coloration seems to extend
down further on breast than one would expect for a Bullock's Oriole, but
the lower belly of the bird does appear to have some gray tones, which
would be consistent with the identification of the bird as a Bullock's
Oriole. Immature male Orchard Orioles seem to have yellowish coloration
extending from the breast all of the way down to the vent based on a series
of photos I have reviewed. Another photo of the bird taken by Andy Frank
is also available for review at
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2pSfRw9y1BU/VowmTUKrPHI/AAAAAAAAusU/Vyn8j5Avs20/s1600/Birds%2B2016%2B004.JPG.
Input from others who have extensive experience with wintering Bullock's
Orioles and Orchard Orioles would be helpful.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen
Portland, Oregon
*From:* obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] *On Behalf Of *BING WONG
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 6, 2016 10:12 PM
*To:* OBOL
*Subject:* [obol] Hatfield Marine Science Center Oriole Pictures
I visited the Hatfield Marine Science Center, Newport today and saw the
suspect Orchard Oriole. I have posted several pictures to Oregon Birding
Association Photos Facebook. At Portland Audubon Birder's night yesterday,
there were discussions about the size of the bird and how to get a
measurement. I took pictures of a blackbird at the feeder with hopes of
getting the oriole also. It cooperated and you can see clearly that the
oriole is smaller (length) than the blackbird. Bullocks should be longer.
You can also measure the birds vs the length of the base of the feeder to
confirm. I'm not an expert, so I'll leave the ID to you folks.
Bing Wong
Portland, OR
