On 07/27/2016 01:43 PM, Joe Rocci wrote:
I agree in concept, except that varactor Q's are generally not goodJoe,
enough to get low loss in a hi-Q, narrow band filter. Making the
coupling track over several octaves is also tricky. And then there's
the intermod potential, since the voltage on the varactors will be Q
times the input voltage. Problematic for me, but an academic exercise
since I've never actually tried to do it.
Joe
W3JDR
-----Original Message----- From: allison
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 1:11 PM
To: minima@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [minima] Re: for minima project
On 7/27/16 9:19 AM, Joe Rocci wrote:
AllisonYes that was it single balanced mixed had blow through and inadequate
As I recall, the problem with the original Minima was that the 20 Mhz
IF leakage through the mixer (IF-RF) wasn't sufficient to prevent
unwanted transmit spurious at the IF frequency, and that the simple
2-band lowpass filter at the input didn't have adequate performance
to improve it enough. I don't see any specification in the ADE-1 or
SBL-1 datasheets for IF-RF rejection, but my recollection is that
numerous packaged and home-brew mixer designs were evaluated with no
definitive solution.
balance. The ADE/SBL rejection was typically
around 40db.
If you don't filter and rely on balance then you need at least 50db to
be "legal" and 56db would be suggested for
If rejection on transmit. The secondary problem is even using high q
coils and caps a notch filter is wide enough that
15m abd maybe even 17M performance is questionable.
I think the proper solution for the original minima is a lower IFRight again. At 9mhz a notch filter has a much narrower and lower
frequency (maybe 9 MHz?) and switched bandpass filters at the
front-end. One could use 2 CMOS bus switches and up to eight 2-pole
bandpass filters to accomplish this (I've done it and it works very
nicely). The final product isn't much more complicated than the
2-band minima lowpass approach and can be implemented incrementally,
adding one band filter at a time as desired. I think one could also
consider this as a souped-up BIT-X.
loss. Mixer performance is
NO worse and likely better and the only near band is 10.1 (30M). so a
filter in the 8.5mhz range
works well or move up to 11.5mhz.
The problem of bandpass filters is the implied spec of minima, the
ability to tune a wide segment of HF with
one filter. For receiving it may fly generally for transmitting band
pass filters per band are the safest way to
meet most PTT/FCC specs for spurs and harmonics. It is possible to
cover 1.5-30mhz suing half octave low
pass and combined high pass filters but t will still be 5 or 6 filters
needing to be switched in and out.
An alternate for that is tunable preselector/passband filters. In the
past that meant a big multigang cap or
a rack of moveable slugs in coils with mechanical headaches. I'd trying
to do it using Varicap doides
to see if that can fly (allowing for tracking and IMD needs) as variable
DC is easier than a rack of gears.
Old school idea, newer parts.
Allison/KB1GMX
FWIW, my 2 cents and all that.
Joe
W3JDR
-----Original Message----- From: allison
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:57 AM
To: minima@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [minima] Re: for minima project
On 7/26/16 1:54 AM, Ashhar Farhan wrote:
There are many ways to continue with the Minima:MOs switches or a fully balanged mixer works.
First:
If one crosses over to the fulll H-mode mixer, it might solve the
leakage problem. I have been trying to keep the design simple with
the KISS mixer. Our (Joe and Mine) experiments wiht using MOS
switches were encouraging.
Second:DBM is a easy way to get a balanced mixer. RF/IF gain is easy and
The other option is to just go with a diode mixer. I already have a
transceiver like that in the works with Si5351. It is a low-cost
design that works upto to 21 MHz and uses two oscillators for the
BFO and the VFO. A a post-mix amp had to be added between the diode
mixer and the crystal filter to provide decent termination to both
sides as well as overcome the filter loss. This is a pretty simple
design. The BFO and VFO are entirely software controlled. A single
LPF that cuts off at 21 Mhz is all that it takes. I will soon post
the details.
cheap.
Filters are both easy and hard, easy to suggest and without instruments
or a procedure that
uses easy to acquire gear hard to assure they work as expected. This is
hampered by fear of
making coils.
Also the IF is too magic as crystal filters are scary for most and high
HF filter being more so.
As it works the 20mhz is not much better for images or wide tuning than
9, 10 or 11mhz
because there will be some frequency or range that will be inaccessible
as its the IF. Also
the lower frequencies its easier to obtain quality crystals.
One solution is a preselection system. The tube radios did this and at
least one vendor
(Tentec) did that on their early transceivers. Ganged L or ganged C are
a mechanical problem
but with Varicaps I have prototyped this and considered it a possible
approach. Its another
knob but it is less a problem if its a simple pot and can provide a
higher selectivity front end
which helpful in Eu and many places with high power SW broadcast
stations.
Third:capacitance from gate to drain is first order issue. Then the drain
The JFETs as mixers could be trouble as their gate-source and
gate-drain can go into conduction easily. Instead, if we use BS170
or 2N7000 kind of switching MOSFETS it might just work.
source parasitic diode is the next problem.
I did some work trying them using some TI parts (lower gate to dran
capacitance) and it was not as good as
Jfets properly biased. The trick with Jfets is matched for Idss and
gate cutoff (dual parts are good for this
but scarce) and then raise to source to the gate cutoff value. The
problem is its still a single balanced mixer.
The interesting thing is, though Minima itself was not a very
replicable design, it did teach us quite a lot. It is a robust
receiver and it has had a large number of spin-offs.
Its trouble spots were the 20mhz filter, and the first mixer. Both are
easily solved.
I know from prior work I've done that a 16mhz filter is easier to
realize and crystals
had better temperature stability vs band width. Also 16mhz is far
enough from
14 and 18mhz to avoid spurs in ham bands and images.
At HF a wide band RX or TRX is easier with a VHF if (45mhz or higher).
But for monoband or
a limited number of bands single conversion and a if at 6-12mhz makes
for a simple design
with fewer issues with retaining good performance.
Having built many monoband transceivers (160 through 2M SSB) and a few
multiband plus
a large number of receivers for various uses and tuning ranges there is
experience. There are
few magic circuits (thought the DDS and SI570 may qualify) the basic
radio is more a matter
of trade offs and choices. This has not changed since the 40s though
the devices to attain
the needed gain have.
Allison/KB1GMX
