--- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Here is an interesting open-forum discussion of the > association of Leftism > and Islamism: > Thank you, Lawrence. I don't entirely agree with "Spinoza" -- your source for "New Socialists" -- (who is anyway talking specifically about the Netherlands, of course) but thought I'd quote anyway: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think we should learn not to use the word 'lefty' for both social democrats and communists/stalinists etc. It's really stupid (escuzer le mot) to equate the moderate left with communism (totalitarian) and than to equate this with islamicism. The centre left (the vast majority of Europe's left) is mainly people like Schroeder, Blair, Jospin etc. and are the 'social democrats'. These are the typical PC brigade in Europe; they are the people that care too much for the weak in society: they are the people that think muslim immigrants should be shielded and protected. But they are in no way 'totalitarian'. Sure, their PCism may be suffocating from time to time, their view may be naive, idealistic and a sure recipe for sisater but they are not the new Pol Pots, Mao's or Stalins of this world. Saying such a thing would be the same as calling Bill Clinton a 'nazi' since on a world scale he's a moderate righty. The readical left is not a very homogenous group. There's actually at least 3 or 4 seperate groups. 1. the environmentalists (that's the kind of people that will try to harass genetic scientists, destroy crops, or release monkeys from the zoo) 2. the (new) socialists. 3. anarchists 4. communists/stalinists/leninists It's groups 3 and 4 that will resort to violence and vandalism, whilst it's group 4 that is usually in league with the islamists. Of course other lefties will march along with muslims and pacificts against globalism, 'american imperialism' etc. In Holland the most leftwing part are the socialists: they are actually rather HARSH towards muslims and their lack of intergration and would agree with a lot of what the late Pim Fortuyn (populist rightwing) would have to say about them. In general most of the excentric leftwing is quite anti america, pro palestine etc. and in some cases will work with Islamists (like in Belgium where the stalinists joined up with Abu Jahjah) but in other cases will be opposed to them. What does this mean? Well, the moderate left (social democrats cum suis) is lenient towards muslims, tollerant and sometimes willing to turn a blind eye towards the bad teachings of Islam. The extreme left is quite fragmented and either actively working with both radical or moderate muslims or opposing them quite a bit. In Germany the 'Gruenen' (Green Party) is extremely Peecee (although some of their ministers have been violent vandalists themselves in their time!) whilst the Socialists (not the Social democrats) in Holland are actively working on good citizenship for our new countrymen (many of which are muslims) and are also supporting bills to crub down their Islamic schools. <<<<<<<<<<<<< now: what's the "Left"'s stance on the war in the Lebanon/Israel? Judy Evans, Cardiff ___________________________________________________________ All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html