Well, Phil, I don't see in what you quote where the US Catholic Bishops say that Just wars are evil. Elshtain writes along similar lines to your Bishops; although she doesn't invoke St. Francis if I recall correctly. That is, she places restrictions on how wars should be fought that are more elaborate than what you've quoted but not inconsistent with them, except for the portions about St. Francis, but that isn't the issue here. The issue is whether a just war is evil. Francis Cardinal George, O.M.L., Archbishop of Chicago wrote, "Jean Bethke Elshtain shows clearly and persuasively how 'just war' teaching meets both the imperative of peace and the responsibility a government has to defend its people . . . . Just War Against Terror challenges Christian theologians and preachers to apply theological discernment more rigorously and realistically when they reflect on terrorism, and at the same time faults the academy's reaction to counter-terrorism as evasive and simplistic. Speaking vividly and directly to the moral decisions America is making, Elshtain provides a service to us all." On page 189 Elshtain writes, "The primary moral justification for war is to protect the innocent from certain harm. Augustine, whose early 5th century book, The City of God, is a seminal contribution to just war thinking, argues (echoing Socrates) that it is better for the Christian as an individual to suffer harm rather than to commit it. But is the morally responsible person also required, or even permitted, to make for other innocent persons a commitment to non-self-defense? For Augustine, and for the broader just war tradition, the answer is no. If one has compelling evidence that innocent people who are in no position to protect themselves will be grievously harmed unless coercive force I used to stop an aggressor, then the moral principle of love of neighbor calls us to use of force." Elshtain here refers to a "broader just war tradition" so she obviously feels she isn't flouting it, and yet she presents arguments I find compelling and I suppose you do as well but I suspect you would refrain from using the words "moral principle" in her last clause. Because if there is such a moral principle; then it wouldn't be evil to function in accordance with it. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Phil Enns Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:58 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Just War Lawrence Helm wrote: "Phil doesn't say where this "well-established tradition of just war" exists ..." It has a long and well-documented history within the Christian tradition, beginning with Augustine. Lawrence continues: "but I did read Jean Bethke Elshtain's Just War Against Terror. On page 189 she writes, ". . . reason and careful reflection . . . teach us that there are times when the first and most important reply to evil is to stop it. There are times when waging war is not only morally permitted, but morally necessary, as a response to calamitous acts of violence, hatred, and injustice." This isn't the tradition. Here is a more accurate account issued by the US Catholic Bishops: ------------------ When Is War Justified? The moral theory of the "just-war" or "limited-war" doctrine begins with the presumption which binds all Christians: We should do no harm to our neighbors. Just-war teaching has evolved as an effort to prevent war. Only if war cannot be rationally avoided does the teaching then seek to restrict and reduce its horrors. It does this by establishing a set of rigorous conditions which must be met if the decision to go to war is to be morally permissible. Such a decision, especially today, requires extraordinarily strong reasons for overriding the presumption in favor of peace and against war. ... Just response to aggression must also be discriminate; it must be directed against unjust aggressors, not against innocent people caught up in a war not of their making. The Council therefore issued its memorable declaration: "Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities or of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation." Side by side with the just-war theory throughout Christian history has been the tradition of nonviolence. One of the great nonviolent figures was St. Francis of Assisi. While the just-war teaching has clearly been in possession for the past 1,500 years of Catholic thought, the "new moment" in which we find ourselves sees the just-war teaching and nonviolence as distinct but interdependent methods of evaluating warfare. They diverge on some specific conclusions, but they share a common presumption against the use of force as a means of settling disputes. Both find their roots in the Christian theological tradition; each contributes to the full moral vision we need in pursuit of a human peace. We believe the two perspectives support and complement one another, each preserving the other from distortion. ------------------- In my opinion, this accurately reflects the Christian tradition of Just War, and my own beliefs. In no way can one claim that under Just War theory, war is ever 'morally necessary'. It may be permitted, but it is never moral and never necessary. Sincerely, Phil Enns Toronto, ON