[isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
- From: Jason Jones <Jason.Jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:21:18 +0100
Hi Amy,
You may have noticed I used the phrase " ISA protected perimeter network" as I
know from bitter experience what you guys are like when I mention the dreaded
DMZ word! :-P
-----Original Message-----
From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
Sent: 03 June 2008 15:17
To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
The newb and even those that shouldn't be newb have a difficult time understand
the basic concept of an authenticated DMZ. To most DMZ means that you stick the
server out there naked. Press the DMZ button and allow full access to the
server. Don't bother to patch it because you'll probably have to re-image it
from time to time anyway, since it's being constantly hacked upon.
It's this attitude that causes me to say DMZ is dead. It's old outdated
terminology that shouldn't be used anymore. ISA may have the ability to
authenticate and protect servers in the DMZ but most don't. I really think that
ISA needs a new term.
thanks,
Amy Babinchak
Harbor Computer Services |(248) 850-8616
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-----Original Message-----
From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Thomas W Shinder
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 10:11 AM
To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
Yo Jim,
Now that is an interesting topic. A paper airplane is simple compared to
a B1 bomber, but I'd argue that the B1 probably provides a higher level
of security :)
Bringing the analogy down a bit, "complexity" is operator dependent.
Creating anonymous and authenticated access DMZs is simple for us, but
complex for the ISA firewall neophyte. Does that mean the auth and anon
DMZ concept is not secure? Or is it secure for us, but not secure for
nEwB?
Just playing with the idea of "complexity is the enemy of security". It
sounds right to me, just trying to figure out the corrolary arguments.
Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
Site: www.isaserver.org
Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
>
> Since "better" is subjective, I'd be more inclined to call it
"better-isolated".
> In general, any time you can functionally isolate (whether this is
literal isolation is
> another discussion) inbound and outbound traffic, your firewall
policies and
> requirements become simplified. It's a given that since complexity
increases the odds
> of human error, complexity must therefore be the enemy of security.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:35 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
>
> So, in this scenario, I am right to consider a combined solution to
get a "better"
> security solution - yes?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 02 June 2008 16:43
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
>
> MS separates inbound and outbound arrays.
> You're right; IAG sux as a fwd proxy and ISA bows to IAG remote client
trust
> mechanisms.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:16 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
>
> As ever, I have left out the details until someone volunteers to help
J
>
>
>
> I know that IAG *is* ISA, but in the current solution set the ISA
"bit" doesn't scale very
> well if you are looking at multiple IAG units to protect a data centre
for all inbound and
> outbound access. In this sort of scenario, IAG can't really cut it on
it's own to facilitate
> system -to-system communications (and authenticated outbound/forward
access) and
> ISA seems much more appropriate. I know ISA could be configured to do
some of this,
> but having to create firewall policy rules on each appliance and
synchronise them
> across several IAG appliances doesn't seem very elegant to me...
>
>
>
> So assuming we are looking at an Internet datacentre model (e.g. all
the clients and
> untrusted systems are on the outside) I am thinking that both IAG and
ISA would be
> needed to provide an elegant solution - yes?
>
>
> In this model, it seemed to make sense to put ISA on the edge as it
can provide LB/HA
> out of the box (with NLB), whereas IAG cannot. ISA can then be used
for "protection"
> and IPSec VPN with IAG added for more advanced publishing with/without
endpoint
> checking as required.
>
>
>
> In the above model, I am leaning towards putting the external
interface of IAG into an
> ISA anonymous access DMZ, with both devices connected directly to the
internal
> protected network. However, I am curious if this provides little
benefit and I may as
> well simplify things by placing IAG in parallel if it will be
dedicated for remote access
> duties...
>
>
>
> Any chance of a hint at what MS IT do?? ;-)
>
>
>
> Jason Jones | Security | Silversands Limited | Desk: +44 (0)1202
360489 | Mobile: +44
> (0)7971 500312 | Email/MSN: jason.jones@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jim Harrison
> Sent: 02 June 2008 14:47
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] Re: ISA/IAG Topologies
>
>
>
> ..pick one.
>
> ..no; really - there is no "boilerplate".
>
>
>
> It depends on what you have for application and security requirements.
>
> IAG *is* ISA with some kewl stuff tossed into the mix.
>
> Thus, the question of whether to place IAG or ISA at the edge is
equivalent to asking
> "should I place ISA or ISA at the edge?"
>
> Deploying ISAG and ISA side-by-side will be determined by the tasking
for each as
> well.
>
> In general, using IAG for fwd traffic is; shall we say, a bit less
than easy.
>
> Likewise, trying to duplicate the functionality IAG brings to the
application publishing
> game is impossible.
>
>
>
> IOW, their relative merits in a given scenario depend largely on what
you want them to
> do.
>
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> From: isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:isapros-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jason Jones
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 2:34 AM
> To: isapros@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isapros] ISA/IAG Topologies
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I was wondering what sort of topologies you guys had used for
customers who were
> looking at combined ISA Server and IAG deployments?
>
>
>
> For example:
>
>
>
> Should ISA be the edge device with IAG in an ISA protected perimeter
network?
>
>
>
> Should ISA and IAG be placed in parallel?
>
>
>
> Should IAG be placed between two ISA Server edge firewalls (e.g.
between front-end
> and back-end ISAs)?
>
>
>
> Any feedback appreciated...
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> JJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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