[geocentrism] earth turning
- From: "philip madsen" <pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:48:11 +1000
Scripture to mean that the Earth is "turning" or "spinning".
It shook my confidence in them.
John
Well maybe the author when writing it was familiar with turning clay to make
pots, an ancient technology indeed. all his peers would have known I respect
the creationists, but their science is flawed and they do harm ... They ignore
that God Created an old earth, which pure logic demands.. Adams trees had age
rings, were not hollow, and his garden had a river of well worn age. I would
imagine he even had a navel, as though he came by an umbilical cord, but he had
no mother.. Philip
----- Original Message -----
From: John Roodt
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:54 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
I agree with you Bernie. I obviously didn't explain that well enough. You've
taken that quote out of context.
I have a lingering doubt -- about the size of a mustard seed :-) -- that the
Bible actually says that the Earth is physically immovable as in "the fixed
frame of reference of the Universe". But rest assured, whatever it does say I
am confident that the Bible will prove to be true, regardless of what Science
says today.
The ICR (Institute for Creation Research) are very credible (to my limited
knowledge) and they believe that the Earth spins. I read an explanation for why
they believe the Earth spins that used this Scripture in Job.
Job 38:12
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to
know his place; 13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the
wicked might be shaken out of it? 14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and
they stand as a garment.
(The NIV translates verse 14 as: "The earth takes shape like clay under a
seal; its features stand out like those of a garment." )
I found it bizarre that they thought the "turning as clay" to mean that the
Earth turns towards the Sun.
After the Flood subsided, I imagine the Earth's surface to be a muddy sludge
that then hardened with the Sun's heat and took shape in the same way that clay
hardens into a seal -- its new features standing out like those of a garment. I
can't see how the ICR can be dogmatic about interpreting that Scripture to mean
that the Earth is "turning" or "spinning".
It shook my confidence in them.
John
On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Bernie Brauer <bbrauer777@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
John wrote:
"Does it really matter to us whether or not we rotate and orbit or
just stand still?
Yes it matters a great deal because a non-moving, non-rotating Earth
proven to the satisfaction of the masses, would give the Bible a
great degree
of credibility. People would think, "against all odds they were
right, the Bible
must be the word of God."
Then they would investigate the Bible and discover other truths like
a Judgment Day to account for their behavior during their time on Earth. A
person is judged
by their thoughts, words and deeds and the intentions and motivations
behind
their thoughts words and deeds. Great rewards and severe punishments
are given.
When people believed this there would be little crime or war. No dead
one million
Iraqis. No Ali Abbas with his arms blown off.
Secondly, in order for the Earth to be stationary the stars have to
be able to
go around nightly, so that eliminates the 78 billion light year radius
of the universe and then that destroys the 14 billion years built
upon that radius,
which knocks out the time prop needed for organic evolution.
When people realise their fellow man must have been created and not
evolved
from bacteria or animals then again, they would have greater respect
and awe
for other created humans and not bomb them or do evil to them. In fact
ig there's great rewards they might be more inclined to help
and to do good to others.
Bernie
--- On Tue, 9/23/08, John Roodt <johnroodt@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: John Roodt <johnroodt@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 9:55 PM
:-) no problem, Phil. And, no, I am not a clever scholar.
We're like a company of soldiers all marching to the beat of the
drum in our own heads, and each of us loudly protesting that we're the only one
in step.
But even though we should probably end this discussion, I see no
reason to apologise to this forum.
Wasn't it the Scripture that caused us to question the current
model of the Universe? Even though we had no scientific proof, we were
confident that the Bible held a contrary view, and we were inclined to believe
it.
In fact, Neville's website initially quoted the Scriptures that
indicated that the Earth was fixed and could not be moved.
I asked the question ages ago whether or not the word 'moved' meant
a physical movement as opposed to: "my heart is steadfast and will not be
moved", or "I was moved to tears" etc. No one answered it. But I have watched
the debates to see if the question would be answered anyway.
So it's significant that Neville appears to believe little of what
the bible says, and that you and I (and others) can differ so much in our
interpretation of what the bible says. Does it really matter to us whether or
not we rotate and orbit or just stand still? What matters is that there is an
apparent discrepancy between what Science says and what we believe the Bible
says. At least that's how it appeared when I joined this forum. Maybe you've
all moved beyond that and I haven't. My only concern is: "what is the truth?"
We both love the truth; we read the same Scriptures; and we pray to
the same God for understanding on these matters and others far more important
than whether the Earth moves or not. How then can we be so far apart?
I don't know -- but I'll move on now.
With respect to all,
John
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM, philip madsen
<pma15027@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter came in with some biblical comments that seemed to deny
Jesus was God. along with other, Therefore I can answer those points together
with my response to Johns below. inserted in brown.. Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Roodt
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: correction
Phil,
Catholics overlook one glaring truth. JESUS EXISTED BEFORE THE
WORLD BEGAN!! In what possible sense could Mary be his mother in Heaven?!? A
Mystery perhaps but Elizabeth did say it..
42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art
thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to
me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Some Catholics may overlook it ! but they are not "clever
scientists" like myself, and would hardly be expected to comprehend the
complexities of time space and eternity. Thats why Heaven is called a place of
many mansions!
I have already asked John using this same quotation , did he
understand the difference. "Before Abraham was born, I AM". Time is temporal or
temporary.. Eternity in temporal terms is compared to an everpresent "now" A
mystery to 3D human brains, but fully experienced in the next world. " We
pray ....." Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as
it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be..."
beginning = ever shall be..
What has Mary to do with Him?
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my
spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the
humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call
me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy
is his name.
Jesus entered this world for a purpose ... He wasn't created here
the way we are. He already existed. He is no-one's Son but God's alone. Mary is
NOT the mother of God.
And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to
me?
She is not even the mother of Jesus in glory -- how could she be?
You've said it yourself, Catholics make "Graven images of things in
Heaven and Earth and pay them homage"... how much more evidence must you see of
pagan worship before your eyes are opened and you see the truth?
You read into my words a thing I did not say. And it is off
subject, unless you are only interested in Catholic bashing.. I am not into
protestant bashing, and will not be drawn into such a slanging match here.
Sufficient to say, no catholic may pay homage to images or things.
Respect absolutely, as I would hope you give to the Holy Book, lest someone
commit sacrilege with it. You could not see, or else ignored my accent on
humility in all things as promoted by Mary.
The Bible is an incredible work. Consider how God allows sinful men
to be the writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing --
He knows that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths. Even
though they are weaved into the fabric of human existence -- interlaced with
the stories of sinful human lives. It is truly amazing. How awesome, and wise,
and great is our God. The depth of His Wisdom is unfathomable.
Thus here may I take the quote Peter used and His comment..
It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as
doctrines commands of men.'
So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the Bible, it
is a doctrine of men. Peter. "Consider how God allows sinful men to be the
writers of His Word. Even Jesus did not commit anything to writing -- He knows
that He can get man to write down His eternal and perfect truths"
And if you did not hear it from His mouth, how can you be
absolutely sure the Bible is not a collection of the doctrines of men!
Jesus selected 12, many more than the few of the testaments. Yet it
was the men who followed centuries later who decided to collect and authorise
the Books into a canonised NT of Scripture. "Doctrines of men " As are the
Quran or the Book of Mormon!.... They cannot authorise themselves..
Mary is just a blessed part of the fabric through which God wove
His plan for salvation. Jesus himself said that no-one born of woman was
greater than John the Baptist -- not even Mary. How could she be exalted above
even John the Baptist?
These issues are your preferred interpretation. If you are indeed a
clever scholar then I must weigh your opinion against other clever scholars who
also are very well educated men. And after that, then one must wonder which if
any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
That the most intelligent of scholars in the world are unable to
find consensus on so many issues raised by Bible study, is fair evidence to
show how in-appropriate is the idea that the Bible Alone suffices unto
salvation.
Thanks for efforts to explain your position, but I think you need
to step back and re-look at what you believe.
Be sure I believe nothing blindly. I said above, "And after that,
then one must wonder which if any has the guidance of the Holy Ghost. " If it
was on scholarship alone, I would have no faith. I firmly believe that those
men whose apostolic succession is proven by the historical continuity of
"laying of the hands" in ceremonial sacramental ordination all the way back to
the Apostles, and to Christ Himself are the most logical group whose
scholarship would be guided by the Holy Ghost; that same group of men who
collected and authorised the Holy Scripture and protected it throughout the
centuries.
I agree, we have exhausted the subject here. Its been an enjoyable
discussion. My Prayers as always are with you and all the members of the group.
Many thanks to Neville for his tolerance and for allowing us to proceed.
Regards, Philip.
John
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:05 AM, PETER CHARLTON
<peter.nambo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There is an awful lot at stake here. How terrible for either
of us to cling to our beliefs at the cost of our souls. Incidentally, is there
a consequence to denying Mary as "Queen of Heaven"?
A good question indeed for Jesus said 7 It is in vain that
they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.'
So, unless a doctrine such as Mary veneration is in the
Bible, it is a doctrine of men.
46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, look! his mother
and brothers took up a position outside seeking to speak to him. 47 So someone
said to him: "Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking
to speak to you." 48 As an answer he said to the one telling him: "Who is my
mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 And extending his hand toward his
disciples, he said: "Look! My mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the
will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and
mother."
Also, Jesus showed us that even he himself was not to be
venerated, let alone his Mother, only his Father in heaven, MT 19:16 And,
behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do,
that I may have eternal life?
MT 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Pete Charlton
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