[geocentrism] Whos side are you on Phil
- From: "Philip" <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:57:36 +1000
"Who's side are you on Phil?"
I am not writing this to knock Catholicism, or to deny Nick his opinion, but I
write it to defend Ja against the sophisticated argument presented by Nick.
Nick said,
No, the line of reasoning doesn't apply to me. You rely on your fallible self.
I rely on a Church which claims God-given infallibility.
I would think Nick that you are still relying upon your own fallible self in
determining the infallibility of the Church, specifically men. Popes or
councils, Just as Ja is relying on his fallible self in relying on Scripture.
Nick said,
I always find it interesting that non-Catholics accuse Catholics of "arrogance"
because we speak with certainty. It's not arrogance to rely on someone other
than yourself. It is arrogance to rely just on yourself as you do.
I see the case being the same on both sides. You have neglected to notice that
Ja is humbly dependent upon Holy Scripture, which cannot be called arrogance,
as indeed neither can the Catholic. Both parties are relying on the words of
another, as each sees it. Both have privateopinions based on the evidence
available to each.
Why do you say you have "so far" rejected the Catholic position. If you're so
certain, why hedge.
.Who indeed can ever be absolutely certain? Faith is attributable to many
beliefs, even science. Save a direct revelation, such as Scripture claims for
Saul, and I claim from Fatima, (albiet second hand) then there is no such thing
as CERTAIN.
As to the rest of your statements (e.g. that Christ did not establish the
Catholic Church), thank you very much for your OPINIONS---.But why should
anyone rely on the opinions of someone who admits he can be wrong on everything.
Thus might the worm turn. Nick also does not claim to be infallible, but has
formed an opinion based upon faith and reason alone. You have not provided
sufficient reason for another to accept your opinions.
I am glad though that you have added your willingness to supply the information
privately that supports your opinions. I agree with you that in the serious
matter of salvation, one must not reject truth of any sort based upon false
information. Especially information that has been presented by diabolically
disoriented, disallusional or disallusioned people who have allowed their
emotions and reason to succumb to hate, or even an accident of birth. An
unfortunate common human attribute.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Niemann, Nicholas K.
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:02 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
JA,
Thank you for your follow up.
No, the line of reasoning doesn't apply to me. You rely on your fallible
self. I rely on a Church which claims God-given infallibility.
I always find it interesting that non-Catholics accuse Catholics of
"arrogance" because we speak with certainty. It's not arrogance to rely on
someone other than yourself. It is arrogance to rely just on yourself as you
do.
I'm not "reading your mind or using a crystal ball". I'm just responding to
the obvious from your own statements.
Why do you say you have "so far" rejected the Catholic position. If you're
so certain, why hedge.
Don't look to me to give you "reason to change [your] mind". If you are
serious, I'll provide you some credible things to read for yourself. Others
have made the case, so I'm not about to spend all day writing emails.
As to the rest of your statements (e.g. that Christ did not establish the
Catholic Church), thank you very much for your OPINIONS---.But why should
anyone rely on the opinions of someone who admits he can be wrong on everything.
By the way, remember that this began because I responded to you.
Regards,
Nick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 7:09 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus
Thank you for your opinions. Of course, that's all they are. Since you are
fallible, you are capable of being wrong on pretty much everything you profess.
You really don't know for sure, do you. Doesn't this line of reasoning apply
to yourself?
So, I'm letting you in on something. Christ established the Catholic Church
and He assured it that the successors to St. Peter would be infallible when
speaking to the whole Church on matters of faith and morals. Christ did not
establish the catholic church, he established his church and no-where can you
demonstarte this promise of infallibility of popes by christ's words.This same
infallible Pope, in passing down Christ's teachings, has proclaimed infallibly
that there is no salvation for those outside of the Catholic Church. This
proclamation by itsself proves you wrong
You can ignore all of this and, as they say, be fat, dumb and happy in your
uninformed, fallible beliefs. I am stunned by your arrogance and judgement. Or
you can with an open and honest truth seeking heart and mind check out the
actual claims made by the Catholic Church, with a willingness to go where the
truth actually leads you. I have and I do, and so far have rejected it. It's
your call. All I can do is point out something you are clearly oblivious to.
Are you reading my mind or using a crystal ball? But realize, when you actually
do face Christ upon your death, and He tells you the same thing I've just told
you, you won't have the excuse of saying you had no way of knowing. You have
yet to tell me anything or give me any reason to change my mind on this subject
other than your own opinion. Which, by the way, is the same standard by which
you condem me. I do not condem you for being a catholic christian. I assume you
profess faith in Jesus Christ to save your soul. Or do you profess proper
participation in your church and correct adherance to the popes' pronouncments
to save you? One is salvation by the grace of god and the other is salvation by
works. I am dependant on Jesus. What are you dependant on?
Why don't you practice what you preached to me: Pray to God in Jesus' name
and ask for guidance in this area. Then read your bible, by yourself, just you
and God and his word. The experience will either challenge your beliefs or
strengthen them.
Nick, all my questions above are retorical - no need to respond unless you
must. I don't really wish to continue this debate. I am certainly not learning
anything about geocentrism here.
To everyone else: I appologize. Here I am in the middle of one of those
Christian/Catholic arguements that have no place on this forum. To make it
worse, I even complained when others did it before me. Sorry everyone.
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