I believe that the cosmos could not possibly have come into being unaided and from nothing. This is a rational position . Something must have made something - this is truly a materialist position. I believe that it was created by a Creator out of nothing. I believe that the Bible informs us about this Creator. This means that scientific data must stand up to this paradigm. Jack As an ex atheist, Jack I can easily forgive a person for thinking your own stance is irrational. A rational thinker coud reply then who made God? You yourself stated nothing can come from nothing.... So Mike prefers to think there may be a process undiscovered. That is a rational expectation.. But we need more than just a book. We have more. We have a supernatural revelation which adds to and supports the Bibles written revelations... The Bible itself says that Jesus and scripture were meaningless if He had not backed up His word with REAL miracles. He promised his followers that they could and would do similar works. I sought and found and proved the existence of supernatural phenomena, with intelligent revelation... That Mike refuses to look and reject the supernatural is his free choice, and God insists that he be allowed to exercise this God given free will. Not I, Not neville, not any creature may deny to him what God has given. And please note.. Mike has never tried to impose his style of faith upon anyone. Phil.