My intention is not to refute your beliefs, my only interest in this forum is in refuting false scientific claims and misrepresentations of conventional science for the beneift of other readers of this forum. I hope you agree that this is constructive criticism. Rgards, Mike. I for one welcome your stimulating input Mike. I hope no one wilfully misrepresents conventional science... That means lies about it.. But to refute a theory, is not misrepresentation... There is not much science that is not theoretical... An axiom is a self evident truth. There are not many of those... A point has no dimension... A lines is the shortest distance... etc. self evident. (not observable alone, but self evident in logic) By contrast, we who are geocentrists cannot claim the sun circles the earth, simply because it is what is observed, to be an axiom. But niether can you claim the contrary. I am still to do my gyro experiment to prove the effect of the earths 24 hour rotation, (or non effect) . But then even should my gyro perform and do its cycle of rotation, I'm sure Robert will come up with an alternative explanation, talking of cosmic inertial forces... I look forward to disputing that question, after I succeed. Philip.