Dear Allen, Yes I can see what you are saying. The fact that I mentioned the different position of the camera on the two original drawings was to check and see if it mattered. I think it is very important for drawings to be as accurate as possible otherwise people may see something that is not meant to be. A question for Regner and Paul. Can you use Allen's or Neville's or my drawings to show why they are wrong. Providing a completely different looking drawing, which can be overdone graphically, just confuses me. It must be possible to show where a drawing is wrong even if it is not possible, for lack of graphic software, to actually change someone's drawing. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Daves To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 2 Axes of rotation - drawing brand new for you Jack, See this change of asthetics..It does not change the drawing or dynamics itself but is more cosistent with itself. I thought this is how the first one looked........but i did not see it till much latter..in any case it does not change anything except the asthetics.... the top one is real rotaion on one axis while looking in another direction.................. and the bottom one is looking at the same axis as the real rotation.. that conditon is not the same line and as Renger pointed out "...the two axes are coincident, in the top figure they are not. You can't change that by any tilting of the figures."........ The significance is the fact that only the bottom one will cause the nightly rotation and the annual orbit/rotation to coincide so as not to be able to distinguish the two. We only observe nightly star trails it does not matter if we take them in one night or over the course of a year the same star trails are the only thing visible. Therefore for HC to be tenable it must explain how there are two rotations on two different axis and yet only see the same thing. My point with the diagram is that the bottom one is the only way to do that...The problem is that the bottom one is not HC and the top one cannot do what the bottom one does.