Allen, I think you you and I are in absolute agreement on every single detail of the "dual axis proof" except one, which of course, makes the difference, and is what I've been trying to get accross to you, which you have answered by basically telling me to look at a globe and/or sweeping it away without any detail other than to repeat things that I already agree with you on. Please consider this carefully and prayerfully and with patience. I would prefer to be wrong, but am afraid I am not. I have spent allot of time looking at a globe, drawing globes, determining what a camera would record with different motions and axis's and lengths of axis's, etc.... As have you. That detail in question being: how much does the earth rotate in 24 hours? You have said: 1 full 360 degree rotation, which would allow a camera (regardless of orientation) to record star trails around the yearly axis, since the camera would rotate about the yearly axis.... I say: 1 full rotation plus a hair more (something like ~360.9863 degrees), which would allow a camera to record only a repeat of the nightly cirlce, since that is the axis the camera has rotated along. If the earth returns to it's exact location and position and orientation every 365 days while traveling 360 degrees around the sun, then it moves 0.9863 degrees around the sun per day. So a complete day, midnight to midnight is 360.9863 degrees. To check this, lets look at the position in 182 days. Midnight on day 182 would be facing practically 180 degrees away from midnight on day 1. Your formula would have 182 days times 360 degrees per day = a whole integer with no remainder.... therefore your midnight would be facing the exact same direction as 182 days earlier, except that we are now on the opposite side of the the sun....so you have midnight facing the sun..... midnight does not happen in the daytime. My formula would be 182 days times 360.9863 degrees per day = a whole integer with a remainder of ~180 degrees... therefore my midnight would be facing directly away from the sun, allowing midnight to happen when it's dark. The only way to record a yearly star trail about the annual axis is to have the camera rotate about the annual axis.... and there is no way to do this.... The only path that moves perpendicular to the annual axis is the 23.56 path, but the camera will not rotate. The 24hour path rotates, but only around the nightly axis. If this still doesn't convice you, then please.....please, don't repeat the things we agree on, which is everything, except what the camera revolves around on the 24hour path. JA.... Allen Daves <allendaves@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: j a <ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Jack, I think your drawing has captured it all, exactly. The green circles could also be described as the camera location at 4 different points of the year (following the 24hour path), while trying to record a yearly circle, and if you look at it that way, you'll see why no annual circle can be recorded....you've moved around the same axis as the nightly.... therfeore you'll have only recorded the nightly. The red lines show where you would like for your camera to be, in order to record an annual circle (because the path is perpendicular to the axis), except that those points only exist along a 23hour 56minute path, and as shown in a drawing that Allen did, there is no rotation of the camera on those paths, so no annual circle can be recorded there either. This is why I have dropped out from those supporting this proof. Since the mechanics involved make it impossible to record anything other than a nightly trail, the lack of a yearly trail in recordings is not proof of anything. JA... Jack Lewis <jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Dear All, This is my attempt to explain more graphically Neville's last drawing showing the two axes of rotation. 1 The green circles are a fixed spot on the world shown in four different positions traversing the ecliptic path. The NEP is perpendicular to the grey ecliptic plane. This illustrates the world's 24 hour rotation. I have tried to take great care to get the geometry correct within the limitations of my drawing software. 2 The green circles also represent the world traversing its annual orbit about the NCP. These are shown as red ellipses. The NEP, according to my drawing geometry, also traverses the NCP. Since there are two rotations happening simultaneously but at very different velocities the illustration can only show an NCP rotation (red ellipses) extrapolated for a whole year. I value comments by all as to whether I have understood the problem or not. I do have a series of 12 illustrations, similar to the one below, showing the position of the ecliptic plane every 30 degrees about the NCP. Jack Lewis www.classiccarartist.co.uk --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.