[geocentrism] Re: 12 Angry Men
- From: "Jack Lewis" <jack.lewis@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:57:13 +0100
Dear Philip,
Philip said:
Why do I get the feeling that Jack is going to be sorry he asked... <grin>
Sorry Phil but I don't share your mirth, I never joke about God when discussing
Him.
Of course I don't submit to Roman Catholicism, I submit only to the Bible
without devious interpretations or additional dogma. I gather that your
daughter has rejected the R.C. faith? Has she embraced anything as a substitute?
You have put your R.C. position quite clearly and I accept that is what you are
told to believe by those who, like you are human and subject to the same human
emotions. I don't accept it.
I do believe that the Holy Spirit does act in us and it is through His
requested help, that we are able to follow God's direction. If we are doing
what the Bible teaches us then it is safe to assume that we are being guided by
the Holy Spirit. That is my position.
The problem arises when strange doctrines start and deviations from God's word
through deliberately bad interpretation or rejection of scripture then it can
be assumed that the Holy Spirit is no longer requested by those who are doing
it and are then given over to the Devil.
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: philip madsen
To: geocentrism list
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:41 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 12 Angry Men
"Dear Phil,
I fully agree with your assessment of Neville's theological position and that
he and I have very little in common and because of this I cannot possibly see
how your daughter's beliefs could be the same as mine and Neville's. Could you
elaborate a little further about your daughter for me please?"
Why do I get the feeling that Jack is going to be sorry he asked... <grin>
Ok Jack, I guess I assumed all would be aware of my Catholic position. In
general, without specifics, the obvious commonality I apply to you all (as
claimed followers of Christ) including my own daughter, is that you refuse to
submit to the Church, believing that Jesus, or The holy Ghost keeps you all
personally on track. Its what you feel. As you confirm, "It's simply a case of,
as Neville put it,'The true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not
through our head.' "
To me this is untenable, in light of the obvious contradictions that exist,
and emotions are not trustworthy, and the obvious truth that God cannot
contradict himself. The true Spirit of God guiding us by grace through our soul
and reason, causes us to affirm our faith as an act of the will, through works
of charity. Note: Charity here means to seek and work for anothers salvation.
Alms giving without this superior motive is not charity. Yet leading a person
to God, without alms giving is still charity. Perfect charity of course only
Jesus could perform, which he did. The prime directive is obedience to God.
That is true charity. (love of God)
This does not preclude Catholics from acting out their heart with feelings,
but their faith is an ACT of the wll, NOT the heart. We do not deny the weaker
sex such feelings do we?
"However some of us are absolutely sure we are right and we go through our
lives feeling very secure. I do not think that God would have (us) feel any
differently."
This confidence sounds so much like the opposite of the humility one would
expect towards God.
To presume on Gods mercy, ( a sin to a Catholic) based upon personal
reasoning such as "I do not think that God will etc," is a very dangerous
position to take.. Doesn't such thinking among men create a spiritual tower of
Babel?
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my
presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out
your salvation.
13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish,
according to his good will.
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your lords according to the flesh,
with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ. 6 Not
serving to the eye, as it were pleasing men: but, as the servants of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
Now you may disagree, but from the heart here means "sincerely" , an act of
will not a feeling.
Consider the simplicity of a child. He is forbidden to take a cookie from the
table.. In his heart he desires the cookie. But in his intellect he wills to
obey his mother whom he loves.
Philip.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Lewis
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:06 AM
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 12 Angry Men
Dear Phil,
I fully agree with your assessment of Neville's theological position and
that he and I have very little in common and because of this I cannot possibly
see how your daughter's beliefs could be the same as mine and Neville's. Could
you elaborate a little further about your daughter for me please?
Regarding me getting upset because Neville doesn't accept my choice of
books, they are virtually the same choice of books that you have! Does that not
trouble you just a little or was I right when I commented that 'perhaps the
others don't care about Neville but I do? We all believe that we are right
that's why we believe what we do. It's simply a case of, as Neville put it,'The
true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not through our head.' From
this point on; who the Holy Spirit is leading will only be known when we die.
However some of us are absolutely sure we are right and we go through our lives
feeling very secure. I do not think that God would have feel any differently.
There is another point that might be worth considering and that is; how
many evangelical, Reformed theology believers are part of this forum? I reckon
I might be the only one giving the appearance that I am as unique as posit
Neville is.
Regards
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: Neville Jones
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: [geocentrism] 12 Angry Men
Philip,
My replies are in green:
-----Original Message-----
From: joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:50:52 +1000
Neville why would the aether be moving at all?
Because without this movement the motions of heavenly bodies become too
contrived and unexplainable in the geostationary system.
And why, does Robert claim there are three different aethers ? Perhaps
he is getting trinity in by the back door.. I've seen it happen..
Yes, he tends to sneak everything in by the back door. Maybe his front
door is stuck?
Yes I'm wee bit Phul at the moment.. gotta give it up , its giving me
tender feet in the morning..
but be serious Neville.. Why do you think the Holy Ghost , or God if
you prefer, would select you out of all the billions of people from the time of
Adam, till this day, alone , just you alone, to be given the sole
understanding, to be able to select which written words amongst the thousands
of available scripts known and unknown, are actually the real WORD OF GOD. AND
TO BE ABLE TO REJECT ALL OTHERS. That makes you truly unique, none higher,
but Jesus Himself.
Of course you are not alone in this.. Jack believes he has that honour,
and he really is upset that you do not accept his choice of books.
Did you guys know that St. Martin Luther threw out revelations? Of
course his offspring put them back... but it took time.
Yours is a very legitimate point. How can I claim to be the only man
who can tell the earth, at this time, which scriptures are genuine and which
are fraudulent? I do not. My commentaries are personal opinions. Only an
annointed man (or woman) could tell you that for sure. Their annointing would
be conveyed to you by God, just as it was when the man Jesus was chosen to
proclaim and demonstrate the word of God.
You must recall the truly excellent study of male behaviour and
prejudice in the film, "12 Angry Men." Remember how Henry Fonda stands alone to
start with against all of the other 11 jury members. What does he say to them?
"I know the kid's innocent"? No. He actually says, "Perhaps he's guilty,
perhaps not, I don't know. It certainly looks as though he's guilty."
On trial for murder is an 18-year-old kid, whose name we are not even
told. Henry Fonda's character in the film wants everyone to talk about the case
and think for themselves for just one hour, because the life of someone that
none of them has met depends upon it. All hell then breaks loose, because the
case is apparently "as clear as the nose on your face."
On trial in this earth is God, whom no man or woman has ever even seen.
The evidence is overwhelming: God said this. God said that. God did this. God
did that. God didn't do this. God didn't do that. Where was God when this
happened? Where was God when that happened? Why did God allow this? Why did God
allow that?
Wait a minute! ... Let's look at the evidence and see for ourselves
what makes sense and what just might be made up. Never mind what opinion
another has reached, what opinion do you reach?
Let's say that the date is 10 BC. You have done something wrong. The
Torah instructs you to take a lamb to the priest. To lead it to its slaughter.
It's from your flock. You were there when it was born. You watched it
grow. You watched it skip and play with its mother amongst the clover. Its
mother trusts you and comes up to you. Then you lead the lamb away. Take it to
the priest. It quickly senses something is wrong (animals are very far from
dumb). It calls out to its mother in vain. When it approaches the blood-soaked
altar it hears the screams of the other animals. It smells their sweat and
blood. It walks through the mud and faeces where the other animals have messed
themselves with fear. It follows suit. It turns to you, pleading with its eyes.
The priest pulls out a very sharp knife. What do you do?
Do you say, "It's only a lamb"? Do you think to yourself how God is
going to enjoy the "pleasing aroma" of this creature's flesh being cooked (as
it states over and over and over again in Leviticus, for example)?
Now consider a piece of evidence which does not fit in with Leviticus.
God states, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." (Hosea 6:6.)
A few years later, Jesus would tell you to go away and consider what
this scripture means, but the evidence was there for you, even without Jesus
being there.
Do not swim with the tide. Dead fish swim with the tide. Shout out,
"STOP! STOP!!" Rescue your lamb and return it to its mother. It was YOU who did
the bad deed, not the lamb. YOU have to pay for it.
It is our heart condition that counts, not our mental ability (or lack
of it, in my case). The true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not
through our head.
What do we know of God, who we have never seen or met? Only what we can
sense and feel.
The Devil is a very clever adversary. A very able false witness in
God's trial. What is called, in legal terms, an unreliable witness.
I therefore regard some scriptures as unreliable, and proclaim God to
be totally innocent as charged. This is why I deny writings to the contrary,
even if they are printed between the covers of the black book.
Whilst I might seem frivolous, I'm really sad. My own daughter
believes the self same thing as does you and Jack, Neville. I must of course
account much of the blame for this upon myself, having never given her in her
entire life any good example such as a real Catholic Christion should, but that
only serves to prove that I am not unique.
I do not have much common ground with Jack, but as regards your
daughter I understand your position. If you have tried 70 times to convince her
of something, then put the kettle on, have a cup of tea and, when you have
finished pulling your hair out, start all over again. But keep in mind that you
(and the black book) just might be wrong this time, and that she might actually
see something clearly which you do not presently see at all.
Regards,
Neville.
Phil er Phul
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