[duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
- From: "Peter Sullivan" <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:45:34 -0400
Joanie,
Looking at the file in the ol' text editor, the character looks like a left
paren.
And pasting from David's original document into WordPad or Notepad gives
rather odd results too.
So I think that there's a case to be made that David's file is just not
quite right, in some way. Hopefully, David get by from now on entering a
degree mark the other way.
- Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Joanmarie Diggs
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:08 PM
To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
You know, I just tossed JAWS at it and while it visually looks like a degree
symbol, JAWS speaks it as a left paren. Then I put in a degree symbol,
which JAWS speaks correctly. According to JAWS the original symbol is 53 in
hex, whereas the degree symbol is B0.
Joanie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:46 AM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
>
> David,
>
> Perhaps Rebecca's proposed approach will work better for you.
>
> But, even if so, I'd like to have a closer look at the problem with
> the file you sent. When I import it to DBT, the degree sign is coming
> in as a left parenthesis. Is this what you find?
>
> - Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Spybey
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:22 AM
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: degrees centigrade in the British code
>
> In Word writing degrees centigrade with the degrees sign is not
> simple. A symbol for the degrees sign has to be imported from symbols
> (though there may be another way that I do not use). DBT does not deal
> with this correctly, eg word file attached. Is there another version
> of the degrees sign which DBTR does work with?
>
>
>
> David Spybey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George Bell
> Sent: 09 May 2006 19:39
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
> I'm on your side here, Peter. SR1 will come soon enough.
>
>
>
> George.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
>
> Sullivan
>
> Sent: 09 May 2006 17:36
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
> George,
>
>
>
> I will look into this.
>
>
>
> But it is increasingly unlikely that anything will be done
>
> about it before the release of DBT 10.6. We are already
>
> about a month behind our original schedule, there are about
>
> a year's worth of important fixes already in the software,
>
> and customers waiting for these.
>
>
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
>
> Bell
>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:33 PM
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
> Peter,
>
>
>
> I fear we have perhaps stepped into a veritable mine field
>
> with this.
>
>
>
> I've just done a quick experiment with a couple of Word's
>
> Headings. DBT seems to ignore Bold and Italics, not just
>
> for the entire heading, but for individual words selected
>
> and changed "for emphasis", such is the second line of the
>
> attached.
>
>
>
> George.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
>
> Sullivan
>
> Sent: 09 May 2006 17:24
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
> George,
>
>
>
> I haven't gone back to visit David's file since receiving
>
> some extra information from him this morning.
>
>
>
> But what you propose does make some sense as a possible
>
> source of the trouble.
>
>
>
> The goal of DBT's importer is to indicate emphasis, not to
>
> show typographical convention.
>
>
>
> Consider the case of a level-two heading style in Word,
>
> where text set in the style is automatically italicized.
>
> The italics should not normally be shown in braille (at
>
> least not per the rules with which I'm most familiar)
>
> because the italics are a typographical convention, not an
>
> indication of emphasis. Instead, the braille should show
>
> un-emphasized text set as a level-two heading.
>
>
>
> But further consider that the user wants to italicize text
>
> within the line
>
> -- to indicate a word or two that are particularly
>
> emphasized within the heading. The print convention for
>
> this is to revert the emphasized words to the non-italicized
>
> form. DBT attempts to indicate the emphasis then by looking
>
> for places where the text is in a typographical form
>
> distinct from what is defined for the paragraph style in
>
> which it is defined.
>
>
>
> All of which is to say that the code is attempting to be be
>
> pretty "smart"
>
> in cases that we considered during the design phase of the
>
> Word importer; and it may simply be getting tripped up on
>
> itself when it encounters the case that David brought to our
>
> attention.
>
>
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of George
>
> Bell
>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 12:15 PM
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
> Hi David and Peter,
>
>
>
> This appears to be one of those nasty, nasty Wordisms that
>
> has driven us bonkers for ages.
>
>
>
> If you look very closely at the Bold version of the file,
>
> you will see that ONLY the letter is italicised.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Now highlight (A) and click on the Italic Icon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Note how the A is no longer Italicised.
>
>
>
> I could be wrong, but in removing the Italics and Bold (per
>
> David's non-bold file), I suspect what Word is actually
>
> doing, is to put an "Invert Character Attribute" code in
>
> (which perhaps DBT is not picking up), rather than
>
> "removing" the attribute itself.
>
>
>
> Then again, as the colloquialism goes, I could be "away with
>
> the fairies".
>
>
>
> George.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
>
> Spybey
>
> Sent: 09 May 2006 16:06
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Strange file containing brackets
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> Most of the material that I prepare starts off as a print
>
> file for our partially sighted pupils and it is usually in
>
> large print and bold. I sometimes forget unbold the whole
>
> document before translating it hence the bold version of the
>
> file I got the strange results with. As a rule I would
>
> expect all the bold and other unnecessary emphasis marking
>
> to be removed as it is not helpful to the Braille reader.
>
>
>
> In the file I sent I can see that the capital A is in
>
> italics but I would still not expect to get what is
>
> happening but rather
>
>
>
> 7.,a7
>
>
>
> Whilst I might prefer it to have no italic sign at all I
>
> would not expect DBT to understand my preference if I am
>
> perverse enough to ask it to translate a file that I have
>
> provided with italics in it!
>
>
>
> There is clearly something peculiar about the files I sent
>
> but I cannot see what it is.
>
>
>
> David Spybey
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peter
>
> Sullivan
>
> Sent: 08 May 2006 19:36
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
>
> documents
>
>
>
> David,
>
>
>
> Thanks for sending the .tex files (off-list). As you
>
> mentioned, these
>
>
>
> aren't really necessary to my analysis, because the problem
>
> shows up also
>
>
>
> (or perhaps exclusively) when importing from Word.
>
>
>
> I'm now puzzled about what you want in the translation in
>
> this case. You
>
>
>
> mention that you would expect (A) to be: 7;,a7
>
>
>
> Does that mean that you expect emphasis markings to be
>
> ignored in this case?
>
>
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>
>
>
> Behalf Of David Spybey
>
>
>
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 4:34 AM
>
>
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
>
> documents
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> The file that caused the problem is attached. However I need
>
> to amend what I
>
>
>
> have said slightly.
>
>
>
> I used Word2Tex, as I usually do, to change the file into a
>
> .tex file that
>
>
>
> SN will read. I did not check the SN file before using DBT
>
> and got the
>
>
>
> result I mentioned. Looking more closely at the WORD
>
> original the A was
>
>
>
> italic not the closing bracket. In SN this came out as the
>
> opening bracket
>
>
>
> in text the A and the closing bracket in Math and hence the
>
> result I got in
>
>
>
> DBT. I should have spotted this fact so apologies for giving
>
> a false
>
>
>
> impression of the problem.
>
>
>
> I was going into SN because of all the mathematics that was
>
> in the WORD file
>
>
>
> in MathType and the route I follow gets that into reasonable
>
> braille
>
>
>
> mathematics. However, if you ignore the mathematics issues
>
> and just got
>
>
>
> straight into DBT from the files I have attached the The
>
> results of going
>
>
>
> straight into DBT
>
>
>
> The version with (A) in bold gives
>
>
>
> 7..,a.'.17.'
>
>
>
> And the version witgh (A) in non bold gives
>
>
>
> .7.,a.17.'
>
>
>
> Whereas I would expect (A) to be
>
>
>
> 7;,a7
>
>
>
> as happens in other files. So there must be something rather
>
> peculiar about
>
>
>
> the two WORD files that I have attached. I have looked at
>
> them but cannot
>
>
>
> see what would cause such peculiar results.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>
>
>
> Behalf Of Peter Sullivan
>
>
>
> Sent: 04 May 2006 16:56
>
>
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
>
> documents
>
>
>
> David,
>
>
>
> Do you have a sample file in the format from which you
>
> started (e.g. Word,
>
>
>
> Scientific Notebook, text, or HTML)?
>
>
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
>
> From: duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> [mailto:duxhelp-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>
>
>
> Behalf Of David Spybey
>
>
>
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 3:02 AM
>
>
>
> To: duxhelp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> Subject: [duxhelp] Re: handing of numbered lists in
>
> documents
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> It is strange how mistakes show up errors!
>
>
>
> I have just had
>
>
>
> (A)
>
>
>
> translated as
>
>
>
> 7,a>
>
>
>
> rather than 7,a7
>
>
>
> I could not understand why until I realised that the closing
>
> bracket was in
>
>
>
> italics by mistake. However I am not sure why DBT translated
>
> this as it did.
>
>
>
> David Spybey
>
>
>
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> * * * <<Brackets file.doc>> <<Brackets file non bold.doc>>
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