Yes, Budd built the domes for Great Northern and Northern Pacific, including
GN's full length domes. They were built with Budd's version of flat sides to
match the rest of the GN and NP smooth side cars. These consisted of three
narrow slabs of stainless steel welded together to make the main side sheets
below the windows. There were conspicuous ridges where the slabs joined.
They also had a ridge or channel just above the bottom of the side sheets, a
belt rail below the windows, another between windows and letterboard, and
the fluted roof encroaching on the letterboard, altogether giving a not
entirely "smooth" side. Pennsylvania, Norfolk & Western and Missouri Pacific
also owned Budd cars with this appearance. They were all designed to be
painted to match their owners' smooth side cars.
Santa Fe had Budd full length domes similar to Great Northern's but of
course they had fluted stainless steel sides. Milwaukee Road's full length
domes were built by Pullman Standard and had smooth sides. They were the
first to be built, and reported to be the heaviest. Southern Pacific owned
full length domes which they rebuilt from standard cars in their own shops.
Don Thomas
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
David HILL
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:22 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Budd Built Dome Cars
You see you learsomething everyday with this group . i did not realize
that budd built Great Northern and
Northern Pacific dome cars . Did they build the full length domes for
Millwakee Road ?? I saw the Big dome and observation car at Owwasso in2009
very impressive, However my US interest has allways been New York Central
they had that massive great steel fleet even GMAerotrains and that real
wild one the Jet Powered RDC. I wonder if they ever barbequed a over zealous
railfam who just had to shoot with a 24 mm lens . They had Everything Steam
right up to 2-6-6-2 s every first generation diesel just about and 3rd rail
electrics . they also ran into Toronto there we go I saw NYC as a kid.
The way I see it . Regards DAVID HILL A.R.P,S.
David E Hill
Sales Agent
E MAIL techill@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:techill%40rogers.com>
________________________________
From: Don Thomas <thomasd@xxxxxxx <mailto:thomasd%40shaw.ca> >
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:29:52 AM
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Re: Train 21
Hi Dave, the train you mention was Pool train 15. At Toronto it divided to
become CN 15 to Chicago and CP 19 to Detroit with through cars to Chicago.
For a time CN continued to run a sleeper to Chicago on the Pool portion,
Montreal to Toronto, but eventually gave it up. All other sleepers ran only
west of Toronto. These sleepers were the only cars on Train 15 to be
supplied and staffed by Pullman. CN and CP both ran parlor cars on this
train and each staffed their own parlor cars.
Don
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of
David HILL
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 11:36 PM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Re: Train 21
Don You saved me typing and spell correcting a big E mail . A Sault Ste
Marie to Kingston route via CPR would be slow to say the least. I had a BRMA
picture book with a shot of a CNR 6200 pulling out of Windsor Station with a
pool train taken in the afternoon. The caption explained that the train ran
west till a crossover on West Montreal Island. then ran on CNR tracks to
Toronto Union Station. a pool train would have a combination of CPR/Pullman
staff . I wonder did they have to have 2 butchers boys on the pool trains.
Regards David Hill
David E Hill
Sales Agent
E MAIL techill@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:techill%40rogers.com>
<mailto:techill%40rogers.com>
________________________________
From: Don Thomas <thomasd@xxxxxxx <mailto:thomasd%40shaw.ca>
<mailto:thomasd%40shaw.ca> >
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:00:57 AM
Subject: RE: [cpsig] Re: Train 21
In practice the base pool train consists stayed pretty stable throughout the
over 30 years of their existence. The main reason the pools were not
extended was that neither railway was sufficiently willing to compromise
their incompatible demands. They remained fiercely competitive within the
pool framework. Your experience of being ticketed on a CP car from an office
hundreds of miles away is exactly symptomatic of how the railways operated.
It also shows some of the benefits of the pool. If there were no pool
trains, the Sault Ste Marie agent wouldn't have dreamed of ticketing you
entirely over CP from the Sault via Sharbot Lake or Tichborne to Kingston,
and if you had asked for such a routing he would have done so only
reluctantly, after getting your explicit acknowledgement that your routing
was slow, circuitous and in part rather primitive. A passenger unknowingly
routed that way would have had a valid complaint against CP. However with
the pool in place, CP could send passengers directly to Kingston in its own
parlor cars.
Parlor car attendants, like sleeping car porters would always be from the
road owning the car. (The sleepers and porters on CN's Montreal-Toronto run
were provided by Pullman.) There was no reason for each road not to staff
its own cars, since they departed and arrived at the same union stations in
Quebec, Ottawa and Toronto, and a couple of blocks apart at Montreal.
Don
_____
From: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of W.
A. (Dale) Wilson
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:08 AM
To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Re: Train 21
Don's description of how pool trains were originally planned would have
required a huge volume of "administrivia" to propose then find approval for
consists. This may go a long way in explaining why the pool concept was not
extended further across the country despite some initial planning done on
transcontinental trains across northern Ontario.
The logic is clear for each railway running their own overnight train with
their own equipment over their own line.
There are some 'detail' questions regarding this mixture of equipment
between any two points in the pool zone: (1) Would a single car (or a few)
be serviced at end points in the easiest to reach coach yard or have to be
interchanged to the 'home road" for servicing? (2) Would attendants in
parlor cars always be from the 'home road' or not?
My personal memories concerning pool service were that growing up in Sault
Ste. Marie and often travelling with family to Kingston would involve a
sleeping car ex the Sault, through Sudbury to Toronto, arriving there early
morning. The onward journey to Kingston would be on one or another of the
morning trains and because tickets and reservations had been arranged
through the CPR ticket office in Sault Ste. Marie, almost always we would be
in a CP parlor car in a train made up mostly of CN rolling stock.
Dale Wilson <dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dale.wilson%40sympatico.ca>
<mailto:dale.wilson%40sympatico.ca>
<mailto:dale.wilson%40sympatico.ca> >
Nickel Belt Rails, Box 483, Station "B", Sudbury, ON, P3E 4P6
On 2012-10-14, at 3:33 AM, Don Thomas wrote:
The "way equipment was assigned" for the afternoon pool train to Torontowas to have mostly CN equipment and a few CP cars.
