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On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:12 AM FreeLists Mailing List Manager <
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cpha Digest Tue, 07 Jul 2020 Volume: 02 Issue: 069
In This Issue:
[cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
[cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Kaley Hoffman" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender
"khoffman" for DMARC)
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:43:29 +0000
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an "A" series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn't
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: "Jeff Pinchbeck" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender
"jpinchbeck" for DMARC)
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:26:58 -0400
I don't think it wouldn't be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an "A" series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn't
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: "Jeff Pinchbeck" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender
"jpinchbeck" for DMARC)
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:35:20 -0400
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn't be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: 'cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don't think it wouldn't be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an "A" series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn't
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: Dale Wilson <dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:02:05 -0400
You’re right! The pattern of sleeping cars being carried for part of the
distance only was carried through to The Dominion later. In the summer of
1928 there was a sleeper out of Toronto for Little Current on the
Manitoulin Island, handed over to the AER in Sudbury.
Dale Wilson
dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 7, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
train. According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the
diner, 4 standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car.
Additional cars were added between specific destinations. For example a
parlor car between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto
and Sudbury (westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an
additional compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
[mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PMoperation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’tlook large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: "Kaley Hoffman" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender
"khoffman" for DMARC)
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:11:31 +0000
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------------------------------
From: "I.W.P." <iftntnfs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:34:07 -0400
I am not sure that everyone onboard actually ate in the dining car.
Ian
Dorval,QC
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Dale Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 19:02
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
You’re right! The pattern of sleeping cars being carried for part of the
distance only was carried through to The Dominion later. In the summer of
1928 there was a sleeper out of Toronto for Little Current on the
Manitoulin Island, handed over to the AER in Sudbury.
Dale Wilson
dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx>
On Jul 7, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
------------------------------
From: "Don Thomas" <thomasd@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:36:46 -0600
The A diners were introduced in 1929. The 1929 issue of CP’s Summary of
Equipment (form MP14) showed all dining cars to have 36 seats. W series
diners only had their capacity raised to 48 in the early 1950s, according
to the 1952 and 1955 editions of MP14.
The August 17, 1930 CP timetable Form A shows 5 sleeping cars from
Montreal and Toronto through to Vancouver. The timetable notes that all
sleeping car space is reserved for long distance passengers. The solarium
car does not advertise food service, and whatever the buffet could supply
would have been fairly limited. Most of the passengers would have used the
dining car.
It is likely that all the sleeping space in the train was rarely full. By
the late 1920s upper berths were becoming difficult to fill, especially on
premium trains such as the TCL. People traveling together increasingly
asked for two lower berths if they were available. Railways made the best
of this by offering “single occupancy sections,” where for a premium the
upper berth was stowed in the closed position and the passenger had the
benefit of full headroom at night. The August 1930 timetable contains an
advertisement for this plan, and the table of sleeping car fares shows a
cost between Montreal and Banff of $21.25 for a lower berth, $17.00 for an
upper and $29.75 for a single occupancy section.
In addition, wealthier travelers could pay a premium for single occupancy
of a compartment, or for two adjoining compartments for a couple. And
drawing rooms were often occupied by two passengers rather than the maximum
three.
Some passengers, probably not a large number, would elect to eat in their
compartment, which would reduce the load on the dining room though not on
the kitchen.
The normal consist west of Winnipeg in the summers of 1929 and 1930
included two 12-1 sleepers, two 8-1-2 sleepers and a 10-compartment car,
with a capacity of 120 (assuming one person to a lower berth). The average
load would likely be rather less than this. I wouldn’t hazard to guess by
how much, but I presume by enough to limit the diner to three sittings.
Don Thomas
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
I.W.P.
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 5:34 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I am not sure that everyone onboard actually ate in the dining car.
Ian
Dorval,QC
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <
cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > On Behalf
Of Dale Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 19:02
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
You’re right! The pattern of sleeping cars being carried for part of the
distance only was carried through to The Dominion later. In the summer of
1928 there was a sleeper out of Toronto for Little Current on the
Manitoulin Island, handed over to the AER in Sudbury.
Dale Wilson
dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:dale.wilson@xxxxxxxxxx>
On Jul 7, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
<
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------------------------------
From: Robert Kirkham <rdkirkham@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:46:23 -0700
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn’t be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: 'cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>'
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:23:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: "rrgrace1@xxxxxxxxx" <rrgrace1@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Rob; I suspect there is no external difference between the two plans, the
36 seat version would have 4 chairs on one side and only 2 chairs on the
other. The 48 seat plan (like the Budd diners) would have 4 chair tables on
both sides. The 36 seat version would have more room for the well to do
passengers of the Trans Canada Limited.
Bob
From: "rdkirkham" <rdkirkham@xxxxxxx>
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2020 5:46:23 PM
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) < dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote:
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn’t be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [ mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx ;]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: ' cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx '
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: "Dave & Marilyn Pottinger" <pottinger@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 21:36:09 -0400
There was a recent discussion on the Passenger Car List regarding the
capacity of dining cars. Most railroads/ways modified their dining cars
from 36 seats to 48 seats in order to increase capacity. Normally there
would be 6 4-seat tables along one side of the car and 6 2-seat tables
along the other side. At some point in time, the 2-seat tables were changed
to 4-seat tables, but the problem here became a lack of room for the
waiters to work in the narrow aisle. No other changes were made to the
cars to accommodate this increase in capacity – they looked the same from
the outside. I am sure that you can use the BGR A diner model to simulate
either capacity.
Regards
Dave Pottinger
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Robert Kirkham
Sent: Tuesday, 7 July, 2020 8:46 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn’t be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [ <mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx> mailto:
jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: ' <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: "Don Thomas" <thomasd@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:19:53 -0600
CP, and likely other railways, used narrower 4-seat tables for 4-4 seating
than for 4-2 seating. In my first job working for CP Bygones selling
surplus dining car china and silver, I was told that the largest size of
oval silver platters were only used on heavyweight diners with 36 seats.
They were too big to fit on the narrow tables used in 48-seat cars. Those
cars would use round china plates.
Don Thomas
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Dave & Marilyn Pottinger
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 7:36 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
There was a recent discussion on the Passenger Car List regarding the
capacity of dining cars. Most railroads/ways modified their dining cars
from 36 seats to 48 seats in order to increase capacity. Normally there
would be 6 4-seat tables along one side of the car and 6 2-seat tables
along the other side. At some point in time, the 2-seat tables were changed
to 4-seat tables, but the problem here became a lack of room for the
waiters to work in the narrow aisle. No other changes were made to the
cars to accommodate this increase in capacity – they looked the same from
the outside. I am sure that you can use the BGR A diner model to simulate
either capacity.
Regards
Dave Pottinger
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robert Kirkham
Sent: Tuesday, 7 July, 2020 8:46 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn’t be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [ <mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx> mailto:
jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: ' <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [
<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
From: Robert Kirkham <rdkirkham@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:33:24 -0700
Thanks for that info gents. Much appreciated.
While I’m at it, has there ever been a W series diner offered in HO scale?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Don Thomas <thomasd@xxxxxxx> wrote:
CP, and likely other railways, used narrower 4-seat tables for 4-4 seating
than for 4-2 seating. In my first job working for CP Bygones selling
surplus dining car china and silver, I was told that the largest size of
oval silver platters were only used on heavyweight diners with 36 seats.
They were too big to fit on the narrow tables used in 48-seat cars. Those
cars would use round china plates.
Don Thomas
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> <
cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> On Behalf
Of Dave & Marilyn Pottinger
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 7:36 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
There was a recent discussion on the Passenger Car List regarding the
capacity of dining cars. Most railroads/ways modified their dining cars
from 36 seats to 48 seats in order to increase capacity. Normally there
would be 6 4-seat tables along one side of the car and 6 2-seat tables
along the other side. At some point in time, the 2-seat tables were changed
to 4-seat tables, but the problem here became a lack of room for the
waiters to work in the narrow aisle. No other changes were made to the
cars to accommodate this increase in capacity – they looked the same from
the outside. I am sure that you can use the BGR A diner model to simulate
either capacity.
Regards
Dave Pottinger
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On
Behalf Of Robert Kirkham
Sent: Tuesday, 7 July, 2020 8:46 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
Rob
On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Jeff Pinchbeck (Redacted sender "jpinchbeck"
for DMARC) <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I should also add, without knowing a specific car name it wouldn’t be
possible to know seating. There were 2 floor plans for A diners with
capacity of 36 or 48 patrons. The W diners had a capacity of 48 patrons.
Jeff
From: Jeff Pinchbeck [mailto:jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:
jpinchbeck@xxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 6:27 PM
To: 'cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>'
Subject: RE: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I don’t think it wouldn’t be 7 sleepers for the entire run of the train.
According to timetables the consist (not including baggage) was diner, 4
standard sleepers, a compartment sleeper and observation car. Additional
cars were added between specific destinations. For example a parlor car
between Ottawa and Montreal, standard sleepers between Toronto and Sudbury
(westbound) or Winnipeg and Fort William (eastbound) and an additional
compartment sleeper between Montreal and Winnipeg.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ;<mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On
Behalf Of Kaley Hoffman (Redacted sender "khoffman" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 3:43 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [cpha] Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years of
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train, all
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5 pm,
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
KALEY HOFFMAN
------------------------------
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
From: Craig Talbot <talbotc@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 20:47:51 -0600
Fred Shannon might have through his great Western Passenger Car Details,
but that disappeared in a fire at least 10 years ago. I don't think that
the BGR group ever did or Van Hobbies in brass ( BGR and VH did the A
series)
Craig
Robert Kirkham wrote:
While I’m at it, has there ever been a W series diner offered in HOscale?
Rob
------------------------------
From: "Jeff Pinchbeck" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Redacted sender
"jpinchbeck" for DMARC)
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:44:07 -0400
I have several A diner folios and between them it appears there were at
least 6 different floor plans in use. In the 36 seating layout there were
storage lockers at the end of the car. Alternate configurations changed
the locker area into a lounge or the dining hall was extended to make space
for 48 persons. There may be other differences but those were the ones
that really jumped out at me.
Jeff
From: cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cpha-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Robert Kirkham
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2020 8:46 PM
To: cpha@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Hmmm, I didn’t know about the two floor plans for A diners. now I’m going
to have to figure out which plan the BGR A diners model. Is there a visual
difference in the windows between the two plans?
------------------------------
From: Paul and Janice Clegg <pjclegg4@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 23:11:50 -0600
Subject: [cpha] Re: Trans Canada Limited diner capacity
Many years ago, I worked in a passenger service centre for CN reserving
space for customers. That experience vividly showed me how it was nearly
impossible to have 100% occupancy of sleeping car space in a long haul
transcontinental train. For example, passengers getting off a train at a
large number of stations can never be perfectly matched with passenger
boarding at those stations. As a result, a significant percentage of
sleeping space went empty for much of the trip. CN at the time had a
fairly sophisticated computer reservation system that made it much easier
to optimally fill the train than the prior manual space allocation system
that CP used until folded into VIA. Under the manual space allocation
system, major stations were assigned blocks of space in each train.
Calgary might for instance have 5 compartments for each westbound
departure of a particular train to Toronto. If a passenger reserved a
compartment from Calgary to Fort William, that compartment would probably
remain empty for the remainder of the trip to Toronto as other major
stations would not have insight into space not used by Calgary. While
there were some workarounds such as sending telegrams across the system
seeking unused space from other major stations, this was very cumbersome
and time consuming in a manual system. Suffice it to say that rarely would
all sleeping car space on a particular long haul train be occupied for the
entire trip. As a result, I would assume that diner capacity on a
transcontinental train in the fifties could safely be something less than
theoretical sleeping car capacity.
Having noted the above, there were and are a few exceptions to the general
rule. First of all special movements such as tours could take all space
for a long distance. For instance a tour group going from Montreal to
Vancouver in three cars might use all available space in those cars. In
addition, something like the Grey Cup trains of yore would likely fill all
available space to the cup city for that year for a few days just prior to
the game and the reverse after the game. Today, the Canadian probably
carries a predominance of tourists in sleepers traveling for much if not
all of the route between Toronto and Vancouver so the Canadian is likely
closer to achieving 100% occupancy now than prior transcontinental trains
that catered more to a transportation market.
Paul
On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 1:43 PM Kaley Hoffman <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I was reading a book about the TCL and noted that in later years ofall
operation, there was an “A” series diner assigned to the train, with a
seating capacity of 36. The train would typically have 7 sleepers each
accommodating between 20-27 people each (R, S, G series). Assuming the
train was sold out, there would be between 140-180 people on the train,
fed by a single diner. That equates to 4-5 sittings for each meal.pm,
How would that have worked practically? Assuming each sitting took 45
minutes to an hour, it would be 3-5 hours for each meal. If you started
serving at 7 am, you might be done by 11 am, but that is a pretty late
lunch, and then it is straight into lunch. Dinner could start around 5
but would run to 9 or 10 at night?
In the plans for the tail car, there is a small buffet area, but doesn’t
look large enough to serve any significant numbers of people.
Am I missing something here? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
*KALEY HOFFMAN*
------------------------------
End of cpha Digest V2 #69
*************************
