Suzy:
Thank you for the link, I will treasure it.
El sep 3, 2012, a las 11:13 p.m., sbutz helpisit <sbutz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
escribió:
Hello All,
Throwing in my own 2 cents worth regarding first people. Let me start by
saying that I am not negating any First People groups or theories,
particularly the Zulus and Africa, however I would like to include the
Australian Aboriginal peoples into this discussion and this position of
'oldest living culture' - to give them a voice, to allow them to be included
firmly in the world view of First People.
I recognise that Bert's work with Zulus gives them a special place in
Constellation work and theory, however there is a part of me that needs to
have Australian First Peoples recognised here (in Constellation Talk) as well
- for both my own Australian-ness and for those First People of this land,
who are now being given scientific recognition as at least amongst the oldest
of the First Peoples. I just feel that the statement that Zulus are "the
oldest continuous human culture in world history " is rather unsettling, to
me at least.
This site/article is appropriate, and there are many others:
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/the-first-race-out-of-australia-not-africa
This is not meant to lead talk into a huge argument about who is First,
simply to allow for other options and inclusions : isn't that what our work
is all about?
In Australia, particularly, the exclusion of these Ancestors and recognition
of their direct descendants has led to myriad problems. Every email I send
includes the statement : "I acknowledge the traditional owners of this land
on which we meet and work. I respect and acknowledge the spiritual connection
as the custodians of this land and their cultural heritage beliefs are still
important to the living people today." Hence this email to the group.
However, this recognition of their ancient lineage goes beyond this simple,
western approach: this recognition incorporates these First People's holding
of ancestors, the land, and spirit. This is beautifully portrayed in the
short movie, Kanyini, which is now available on YouTube if you are interested
(info below).
Anyhow, this is just to ensure that these Australian First People are given a
place in world awareness.
Thanks
Suzy
www.suzannebutz.com.au
Kanyini: (go to YouTube and search for Kanyini, or follow this extended link)
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=TwuJbJaCLtc&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dkanyini%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D5%26sqi%3D2%26ved%3D0CDwQFjAE%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DTwuJbJaCLtc%26ei%3DR3FFUMHPKuNiAeZy4GICw%26usg%3DAFQjCNH27QXDpq0bU6HXZ1Cluyjispg1w&has_verified=1
"A necessary and beautiful film, Kanyini looks at the world's oldest living
culture in a way that's never been seen before.
A listed traditional owner of Uluru, former Indigenous Person of the Year,
Bob Randall acts as our guide to "Kanyini" which he describes as the
principle of connectedness through caring and responsibility that informs all
aspects of Aboriginal life.
Bob poingnantly explains why his people are now struggling in a modern world
and what needs to be done for them to move forward. As Bob explains, "The
Earth is our Mother. That makes you and me brother and sister".
A tale of Indigenous wisdom clashing against materialist notions of progress.
Kanyini is not only a story of one man and his people but of the human race.
It is also a story that is fundamental for understanding contemporary
Australia, for only by knowing our past and present can we dream of a future
which includes everybody."
On 04/09/2012, at 11:32 AM, Gregor P wrote:
Dear all,
This is my first contribution to this forum, but I felt the need to throw in
my 5 cents' worth ....
Dan - I read your email with great interest and the description of the three
levels of consciousness provides a timely summary of the system we move in.
Also, the information about the Zulus was new to me, thank you!
I struggle a bit with the term "machine" and wonder whether "organism" or
"biological body" might capture the essence as well? This could open up
exploration in the area of illness (i.e. how the body relates to the other
three forms of consciousness). Or do you really mean it in the sense of the
mechanistic, functioning, cold (?) metal entities (my apologies if I
over-simplify)? I almost wrote soul-less there, but then Michael's
description of the consciousness of inanimate objects came to mind.
Michael - your description of computer networks as "an embodiment of the
over-rational, emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their makers."
really struck a chord with me. Thank you for sharing that insight.
Rosalba and - I too struggle with the idea of where humanity's need to
explore is taking us. Whilst giving us wonderful tools such as
constellations, it also has the capacity to turns us into Frankensteins in
our need to run away and avoid facing and accepting our circumstances. I
guess it comes back to the question of what are good areas for us to
"control" or improve. For example, being overweight vs. being unable to
reproduce.
Gregor
On 04/09/2012, at 7:45 AM, Michael Reddy <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi All,
Whether or not we can call the body a "machine" depends an awful lot on
what you mean by the word. So far, no machines in existence can forage,
survive, reproduce themselves, and adapt as a species (as type of machine,
in this case) to changing conditions of their environment. They do not
manage and coordinate with anything like the complexity and coherence of
living organisms their needs for ongoing power supply ("food" for
organisms), their activity goals, internal homeostasis, social bonding and
so on.
Without getting too technical, it would seem that the body has parts, and
we can in some still crude ways manipulate and interchange some of those
parts, but whether artificial devices will cross the line to anything like
human organisms is still in question.
For my part, coming from shamanic animism, I can talk about levels of
consciousness for anything, including machines. The world is made primarily
of consciousness. But machine consciousness is not that much different
perhaps from the consciousness of all inanimate beings. So this is an
extended sense of the term "consciousness" that most people don't use.
I think gradations of consciousness in this larger sense go up with the
number and complexity of levels of organization that manifest in beings.
Mineral (stone people to the Native Americans), vegetative (plant people,
similarly), and animal (crawlers, flyers, swimmers, and walkers) all
involve more layers of these levels. And humans add another one or two at
least.
Computer networks and the Internet are certainly becoming more complex, and
I'm close to saying they are a strange and not entirely wholesome hybrid of
mineral consciousness and the largely intellectual aspects of human
consciousness. They are an embodiment of the over-rational,
emotion-ignoring, body-denying confusions of their makers.
Just some thoughts to consider in an area where things are hard to talk
about clearly.
Best,
Michael
On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD wrote:
Dear Irene and All -
I feel you have touched on an essential aspect to human consciousness that
we have largely overlooked or excluded as Constellation facilitators.
On the opening page of Love�s Hidden Symmetry, Bert Hellinger describes
three dimensions of conscience: personal, systemic, and Conscience of the
Greater Whole. Since then, he has refined these terms and now refers to the
three dimensions as personal, soul and spirit. Others, following in his
footsteps, have found different language. For example, Thomas Bryson has
offered this:
�Humans all have three aspects - the individual, the systemic and what is
beyond, similar to the metaphor of a drop of water, the wave and the ocean.
The drop and the wave have no independent existence.�
I refrain from explaining Constellations in terms of conscience for
practical reasons. Sometimes, I call these three dimensions of
consciousness: personal, the inherited mind of ancestors, and consciousness
beyond the human scale of time. Here is a link to a YouTube video where I
described them in slightly different terms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVE1cCQ1zAM&feature=plcp> &feature=plcp.
I recently led a training exercise on these concepts at a training course
in
S�o Paulo, Brazil, where it became clear that there is another dimension
that we as Constellators omit, exclude or deny.
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
The idea of the body as a machine is a replacement for the dimension of
ancestors. It began with the emergence of a lineage of Kings in Egypt,
Patriarchs in Judaism, a Holy Trinity in Christianity and an Emperor
(followed by Pope) in Rome. This idea was furthered advanced with the
emergence of science in 17th century Europe. The second dimension � whether
we call it systemic conscience, systemic or the inherited mind of the
ancestors � cannot be precisely observed, measured or replicated. It can be
described phenomenologically, but not quantified objectively. In its place,
is a non-human consciousness. Irene refers to it accurately, �This weakens
all ethical and moral parameters enabling science and unscrupulous others
such as governments to produce an army of mindless worker, fighters,
breeding machines...the list goes on. That is what scares me!�
When Bert Hellinger lived with the Zulus of South Africa, he was among the
oldest continuous human culture in world history. See:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/. The Zulus came to Southern
Africa at the origin of the species. They never moved or migrated. They
never co-mingled or were invaded until the Dutch and English settlers
arrived. For them, the Ancestors are the central regulator of life. In
introducing the concepts of Orders of Love, exclusion of an ancestor, and
systemic entanglement, Hellinger is reintroducing a way of experiencing
human existence that is far removed from the existentialism of his
philosophical mentor Martin Heidegger.
Working from Hellinger�s three dimensions or our own variations, we tend to
not include or overlook the consciousness of the machine. However, for the
vast majority of people in our communities it is their central regulator of
life, either as religious beliefs or technological devices.
http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/stephen-shaheen-headlight
The question of who is the mother of a child conceived in a dish and
brought
to gestation in a machine brings this omission into sharp focus. Irene
suggests the soul of the child will choose to integrate into the body.
Barbara is grateful she won�t be alive to witness it.
I am just beginning to explore this. The next time I do a group exercise
about the 3 dimensions of consciousness, I will include representatives for
the consciousness of machines.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
President
Systemic Constellations Conferences and Education
www.USConstellations.com
www.HiddenSolution.com
781-718-7158
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Irene Davey
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 6:56 PM
To: constellationtalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Im also a grandmother and mother (and a fallen Catholic) but really I dont
see anything too amiss with this concept. There are advantages and
disadvantages as there are with any new thought/product/procedure. I
believe
the soul would choose or not choose to integrate with that particular body
,
maybe the soul was a scientist or an aborted fetus in their previous life?
Now having stated those quick thoughts I will paste a comment from that
article that really disturbs me:
"I mean, we are machines, after all. We have all these ethical and social
over-layers, but the body is a machine."
This is such a throwaway line that weakens all ethical and moral parameters
enabling science and unscrupulous others such as governments to produce an
army of mindless worker, fighters, breeding machines...the list goes on.
That is what scares me!
To: <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: <mailto:systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx> systemic.solutions@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 07:09:17 -0600
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] the future of reproduction...and
constellations?
Thank you, Barbara for the sanity check--I think the Catholic Church has
rejected all these types of reproductive technologies on the premise that
children have the right to be created in the natural embrace of their
parents.
A wise thought, from an imperfect institution maybe?
Rosabelle White Aguirre de Rice
Federally Certified Spanish Interpreter and Certified Medical Interpreter
<mailto:Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Solutions@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
3036640852
Cell 7208389509
On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Barbara Morgan <
<mailto:theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> theknowingfield@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What happens to the human soul when we try to control nature in this
way or rather what has already happened to the souls of those doing
this research and those who would be willing to use it? Anything
rather than deal with the pain of what is.
Horrifying and I'm glad I won't be alive to witness it. Where's the
thought for the child in all this?
Yes, an emotional response. As a mother and grandmother, it can't be
anything else for me.
Barbara
On 18 August 2012 20:14, Andrew Watson <<mailto:andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> andrew.e.watson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
**
This is a really interesting article on the future of reproduction:
apparently, it will be possible to conceive, gestate, and give birth
all outside a human being. It might even be possible to genetically
alter a woman's cells to create sperm with her DNA -- so she could
theoretically (and literally) be mother and "father" to her child.
The opposite could be possible with men....and apparently, it might
even be possible to have men producing milk.
I guess, in the final analysis, life will have life, however that
life comes into being......
Here's the link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a<http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/17/sex-reproduction-a>
arathi-prasad
Hopefully this will spark yet another enriching discussion on this forum.
Enjoy!
Andy
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--
Barbara Morgan
Family Constellations Trainer, Supervisor & Practitioner Editor of The
Knowing Field International Constellations Journal
<http://www.theknowingfield.com> www.theknowingfield.com
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I acknowledge the traditional owners of this land on which we meet and work.
I respect and acknowledge the spiritual connection as the custodians of this
land and their cultural heritage beliefs are still important to the living
people today.
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