[citansdnd] Re: Loot from casino, unarmed strike and bonuses
- From: marbleminotaur@xxxxxxx
- To: citansdnd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:08:25 -0500
First of all, I really have to say this right here and now. Barring the use of
our powers is extremely bad form in 4th edition, and ISN'T FUN. No. No. A
thousand times No. It will get us killed, no ifs, ands or buts about it. In 4th
edition EVERYTHING has some intrinsic tie to magic, magical properties or
magical effects. Every class, be it Martial, Arcane, Divine, or Primal all have
powers that are obviously "magical" in nature. Due to the terms of our current
engagement, the "no obvious magic" rule pretty much nullifies the use of 100%
of our powers. There are no exceptions to this. The use of my Primal Spirit is
obviously magic, regardless of how the spirit is portrayed flavor-wise. Half of
my powers have the "Spirit" keyword, which REQUIRES that my Primal Spirit be
present in the encounter in order for me to even use them. Even my healing
powers are obvious magic. One summons a giant Bear Spirit onto the field, one
Summons a giant TIDAL WAVE, and another makes golden Owls appear out fo thin
air to touch the spirits of our allies.
With 4th Ed it is extremely important to realise that there is NO mechanical
difference between classes. Mechanically, every class is exactly the same, be
they Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal or soon to be Psionic. Instead, 4th
edition has introducd ROLES. Defender, leader, Striker and Controller. The
classes' ROLE defines what they do. Defenders Mark, Strikers deal damage,
Leaders heal and Controllers do a smattering of all of the above. Magic is
inherent in every class, every race and every monster, and I cannot stress this
enough. There are no "Spell Casters" in 4th edition. "Magic" as it was in
earlier editions DOES. NOT. EXIST. About the closest you get is Rituals that
EVERYONE can use. All classes can cast Rituals. You have to spend a feat for
some classes, but the fact remains that EVERYONE can perform them if they wish
their character to.
Next, I cannot stress enough the importance of the mechanics of 4th edition.
Keywords and power requirements are there for a reason. This is to keep the
game balanced. Only tinker with this if you have a full unerstanding of what
you're doing. That said, no, I do not believe the unarmed strike bonus should
apply to two handed weapons or light blades. Rogues must take a CLASS FEATURE
in order to use something that is not a light blade as a light blade. This is
to keep the game balanced. Keep in mind we still haven't seen the official
rulings of Monks, but only one more month until that comes about, and hopefully
it should lay all of this to rest.
I understand what Casey is attempting to do with the unarmed strike stuff, and
that is why I am stressing these points so vehemently. The way I see it, from a
balanced, game mechanic point of view, is that what we have gained should be a
+1 Enhancement bonus, which would apply both to attack rolls and damage rolls
mind you, to Unarmed attacks and ONLY unarmed attacks. And before you ask, NO,
my Minotaur Goring Charge racial power does NOT qualify. It already has an
untyped bonus pre-built INTO the power to compensate for not being able to get
item bonuses or proficiency bonuses. That and it is a POWER and not a weapon.
it is important to remember that even though you are unarmed when making an
unarmed attack, unarmed still counts as a weapon. It is an improvised weapon,
but can still be used with powers with the "Weapon" keyword. And ONLY if the
Power itself does not specify what type of weapon or have the ranged keyword as
well. Therefore, the +1 Enhancement bonus WOULD in fact apply if you were to
use a non-ranged, non-weapon specific power. This is a very simple concept, and
people are overcomplicating this issue.
Now, about Great Fortitude. I'd be fine with it if it WASN'T a Paragon Tier
Feat. This means that we cannot and SHOULD NOT have access to anything like it
before 11th Level. We are level 3. it may not seem like much, but a +2 to our
Fortitude Defense is MASSIVE for ANY character before Paragon Tier. Here's the
thing though, we hit a snag if we wish to make it a divine boon and here's why.
No item singles out a defense and give a bonus to it. NONE. The only items that
grant bonuses to the secondary defenses are neck slot items, and they blanket
all three, and always the same amount. A 3rd level neck Slot item, for instance
will give a +1 enhancement bonus to Fort, Reflex AND Will. Again, this is
because of balance issues. If we start giving out wonton bonuses to defenses,
we're no better than the shmucks who gave the monsters in the monster manual
bonuses to their defenses for NO REASON. This was fixed in both Dungeon
master's Guide 2 and Monster Manual 2. So, just a heads up to all you out
there, DO NOT TRUST THE MONSTERS AS WRITTEN IN THE FIRST MONSTER MANUAL.
Anyway, on the issue at hand, at MOST I would say we could get away with a +1
ITEM bonus to Fortitude if nothing else, or at least use the divine boon to
give us a +1 Enhancement bonus to all three secondary defenses, since thats the
ONLY way you can do it with a divine boon.
So, in summary, the only BALANCED solution I can see is:
A) +1 Enhancement bonus to Unarmed Strikes
and
B) Either a +1 Item bonus to Fort or a blanket+1 Enhancement bonus to Fort, Ref
and Will.
Please please PLEASE don't forget what level we are at. We are only level 3,
and should not see ANYTHING higher than +1 until hitting 5th or 6th Level.
These are honestly the only balanced solutions I can see, and DO follow the
rules for divine boons.
Now, on one final note, I have to say again that you should NOT be limiting our
powers. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. This is because in order for the encounters to
be SURVIVABLE, the game EXPECTS, nay DEMANDS that we use ALL RESOURCES
AVAILABLE TO US. There's just no exception to this! The game is built like
this. EXACTLY like this. You simply cannot deny our powers to us and expect us
to be able to win. Period. A good example is saying "Build me a Bicycle! Oh,
but you don't get any wheels, nuts, bolts or a wrench. OH, and you can't
improvise either, sorry" Would you do this? COULD you do this? The answer is
quite simply and emphatically no, you cannot build a bicycle without using
wheels, nuts or bolts.
I don't mean to sound so ruleslawyery but I'm actually TERRIFIED of what's
going to happen if this were to continue, and I have to draw a line with 4th
edition. I can already tell you being able to only attack unarmed and use my
Goring charge ONCE the entire game is not going to be fun. Period. It isn't
what my character would EVER do. I will be completely and utterly useless and
it would probably be much better if I wasn't even on the team in the first
place. I don't speak for Ray, but I can imagine it's the exact same deal with
his character. Unless we can use every power we have at our disposal, we will
lose and it completely defeats the purpose of even having our characters the
way they are.
-----Original Message-----
From: warrl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: citansdnd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 1:19 pm
Subject: [citansdnd] Loot from casino, unarmed strike and bonuses
Loot from casino:
8 matching goblets, western glass crystal
glass shards equivalent to 2 more goblets
the following gambling chips, actual value (before any black-market
losses) approximately equal to face value
* 11 yellow, 1000 GP each
* 20 red, 100 GP each
* 14 black, 50 GP each
* 19 green, 10 GP each
* 25 white, 1 GP each
Total face value of the chips (which is what Casey said we got): 13,915GP, or a
touch under 1740 each.
GP value of recommended treasure parcels for a group of five level-2 characters
is 5360, or 1072 each.
Assuming Casey doesn't revise downward, we can each afford a pair of level-4
magic items, or a level-5 and a level-3, or a pair of level-3 and a level-2.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unarmed Strike feat
1) Casey originally gave it Reach 1. I suspect this was due to unfamiliarity
with 4th Edition terminology. If your movement leaves you one square shy of
being able to stab someone with your sword, just punch him instead.. um...
Let's forget Reach, okay?
2) Casey describes the weapon as in group Unarmed and with the property
Offhand. But he also said it can be used with any (melee?) power with the
Weapon keyword, and let Assad do Sneak Attack damage which normally requires a
Light Blade. There are reasons why Wizards puts each weapon in not more than
two groups, and even that only if one of the groups is "pole arm" or it's a
superior/multiclass weapon.
Also, consistency makes life easier. If the "weapon" counts as a certain type
for powers, it should count the same for feats and class features. Each class
is a unique combination of features, feats, and powers, and it would be
difficult to construct an "it-counts-sometimes" arrangement that treats all
classes evenly.
I suggest that each player be allowed to choose (individual variations in
training):
a) Unarmed Strike is usable with either two-weapon powers or two-handed-weapon
powers, but not both.
b) Unarmed Strike is part of any one weapon group, but not Pole Arm or anything
ranged or thrown.
This is actually a pretty powerful arrangement (better, as an add-on to a
non-monk, than the monk's unarmed strike would be), but I think this is what it
takes to allow all our melee characters to use their powers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bonuses:
+2 Fort is equivalent to the Paragon feat Great Fortitude. No problem there.
The suggested strength bonus is +2 to strength but only for purposes of melee
attacks. This is hard to work into the character sheet, particularly with the
Character Builder, and also doesn't do much for non-strength-based attacks
(Assad, for example, with his suite of dex-based powers). When it applies, it
works out to +1 to hit and +1 to damage on attacks that get stat bonuses.
One easy partial fix would be to just give +2 to strength. But that applies the
bonus to a number of skills, heavy thrown weapons, and some other situations,
and still does nothing for Assad. And it would also give another +1 to
Fortitude, for any character with more Strength than Constitution (most to all
of our melee guys, and possibly some of the casters too).
What I think is a narrower fix:
A) Weapon Focus (+1 damage) Unarmed Strike.
B) Weapon Expertise (+1 attack) Unarmed Strike.
This is immediately somewhat less powerful than what Casey said, because it
wouldn't apply to other melee weapons; but it gives the damage bonus to attacks
that don't get ability-modifier damage, and also satisfies the prerequisites
for Weapon Master which applies the same benefits to all weapons - including
ranged weapons - the character is proficient with. That is at least a plausible
compromise.
(Casey: The current scenario inherently favors melee combatants over casters.
Sometime after it's done, can you give the casters a chance to show off?)
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