I'd like to know about the origin of the universe, too. Even if there was an
uncreated creater, we still don't know what happened .
AAbby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey ;
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 6:37 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: an open letter to God!
It's even worse for me, Carl. At the age of sixty-four it really irks me that I
will not live long enough to know everything.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing
in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/10/2018 7:02 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Abby,
At 83, I have only one great regret. I will not live to an age where
I will know the origin of the universe. That really ticks me off
Carl Jarvis
On 12/10/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Abby,
People who believe in God, don't care whether or not their belief can
be scientifically validated. I suppose that belief in God is more of
an emotional experience than an intellectual exercise. It's very
confusing to me because there are some very intelligent people who
become involved in studying religion. People attend some very classy
theological seminaries.
But I wonder if all of the words that they use are just metaphors,
sort of like poetry, and have nothing to do with what they believe is
the literal truth. If you read that Chris Hedges piece I posted
today, which is all about religion, or you listen to Cornell West, it
makes you wonder, or it makes me wonder. Are all those words just
symbolic language, like music, which are not meant to be taken as literal
truth?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of abby
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 10:25 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: an open letter to God!
I b believe in God, but since there is no way to be sure there is a
god, am I an agnostic?
AAs the U. Utah Philips version of the hymn goes, I want to know now".
Abby
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl ;
Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 8:09 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: an open letter to God!
Dear God...if indeed you are God, and you do exist, and you are
listening to me and not running around in other universes or sitting
on your throne listening to the sound of billions of harps.
God, sir or madam as the case may be, I have such great respect and
caring for both Roger and Miriam, yet we have come up against a
roadblock. They tell me that I am an Atheist, while I declare myself
as an Agnostic. We are just three very stubborn humans, and this
matter is never going to be resolved by us 3 mortals. So if you
wouldn't mind, Sir or Madam as the case may be, if you wouldn't mind,
could you send an answer for us? One that we all 3 can understand.
None of this burning bush stuff. No plague or Flood. I know! If
you were to drop bundles of hundred dollar bills, like several
millions, onto my deck, instead of that nasty tasting Manna, that
would let Roger and Miriam know that You are really out there...or up there,
whichever way is up.
Hmm...I think I missed my point. But I would really do good stuff if
you could spare the money.
So, I close in the name of You, and of your Son, Jesus, and of the
Holy Smoke.
Carl Jarvis
(who is now headed for the deck to see if anything dropped out of the sky"
On 12/8/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree with Roger. I think that Carl is an atheist, but he doesn't
want to use the term either because he thinks that it means that he
is asserting that there's no God, rather than that he doesn't
believe in God or, because there are some public Atheists who write
about the subject and whose writing tends to be very unpleasant,
often including a good deal of bigotry along with their thoughts
about the non existence of God. Christopher Hitchens is one who comes to
mind.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 8:29 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: responding to Mostafa
You spend a lot of time here expressing an atheist position to be
shying away from the word atheist. Maybe you should just break down
and admit to being one. I told the story once here about how I came
to break down and admit it. It was when I was in a college class and
someone told me that I kept taking atheist positions so why didn't I
just call myself an atheist. I said that, okay, I'm an atheist, and
I haven't stopped calling myself that since. And I had been an
atheist, not the agnostic kind, for about two years at the time. But
when I was an agnostic form of atheist for about four years, from
the age of twelve to the age of sixteen, I had been making the
mistake of equating the probability of there being a god and the
probability of there not being a god. In retrospect I realize that I
just had not thought it through. I did not even realize that I was
equating the two propositions. I just thought that I couldn't prove it one
way or another.
So I didn't know whether there was a god or not.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 5:50 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I think that earlier I mentioned that I like the quote by Isaac
Asimov. I used to read his Science Article in Galaxy Magazine.
Later, when the Asimov Science Fiction magazine was published in
Braille, I subscribed in order to improve my Braille skills. I was
very disappointed when they cancelled the Braille edition. I still
get the recorded magazine from the Talking Book and Braille
Library, but only glance at it from time to time.
In fact, I do not consider that there is any chance that God
exists...or not. No 50/50 chance.
When I walked away from Christianity, it was because I tired of
people so certain regarding the existence of something they only
had second hand stories as proof. But I don't care what they believe.
And working with so many elderly people who express deep Faith, I
say nothing. Seldom do we discuss religion with our clients, but
once in a while we are pressed into a corner. Of course we could
say, "we are not allowed to discuss religion", but I refuse to be
bound by bureaucratic mumbling, either. So this woman said, "I'm
so glad good Christians have come to see me". I said, "Thank you,
but we're not Christian". She sat silent for a minute, and then
said, "But my dogs love you. If you were not Believers they would not let
you enter."
She continued along these lines for some while, not wanting to
accept my word that I was not a Christian. Finally, after going
around and around, I asked her, "Do you believe that God created
Adam and Eve, and put them in the Garden of Eden? Do you believe
that Noah built a boat big enough to put two of every animal on board?"
"Yes", she confirmed. "Yes! God did exactly that." I said, "Then
we have nothing to discuss."
I often think about so many people I've known who feel driven to
force me to accept their beliefs. When I'm in the mood, I try to
get them to accept that there is really a Tooth Fairy". "I know
there is a Tooth Fairy," I assure them, "Because whenever I lost a
tooth, a dime appeared under my pillow in place of the tooth. And
my mother told me that it was the Tooth Fairy. She said she saw it
sneak in while I was sleeping." They act as if I'd lost my mind.
How could I honestly believe such silliness? "well," I tell them,
"you expect me to believe in an invisible God and His buddy the
Holy Spirit, and if you are Catholic, you also tell me that Mother
Mary is there to intercede.
And all of this is simply on the second hand word of long dead men
who wrote a book. By the way, did you know that Tinker Bell is real?
I saw her in a movie."
I'm told that I am being silly! I'm assured that Faith is very
complex and sophisticated. I tell them that if God's Word is so
complicated that it takes someone really smart, like them, then I
have to question just how truly wise God is. Don't you think He
would make His Word simple enough that the dumbest of us would
understand?
Religion is simply a tool of those in control. It may also be a
shield from the knowledge that we humans understand, our mortality,
something much of animal life does not deal with. But in truth,
believing in God answers nothing, including the proof it would take
to demonstrate God's presence. Hmm, I do believe I'm going around
in circles. That is scary. If I keep it up I might find myself
creating God.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I still think you are falsely assuming an even chance between the
existence or nonexistence of a deity. As for the J. K. Rowling
quote, you might remember that I used to have a quote in my
signature line that I changed every month. I originally started
that because there were so many religious signatures on these
blind lists and I wanted to counter them a bit. But it was getting
harder to find a quote that I had not used and so when I upgraded
to Windows 7 and started using Thunderbird with it I just went
back to no signature just because it was easier that way. But I
use the Goodreads site. I have still not quite fully explored it,
though, even though I have now been using it for years. But it
turns out that Goodreads has a feature for looking up genres of
literature.
There are a lot of genres and I think Goodreads recognizes more
than the publishers do. Once you open up a page dedicated to a
particular genre you find lists of books in that genre including
new books, most popular books, lists related to the genre and so
forth. One of the features is a couple of quotations related to
the genre. So back in mid October I was looking at the genre page
for skepticism and under skepticism quotations was one by Isaac
Asimov that I really liked. So I decided to start putting a
signature line on my emails again and I pasted that Asimov quote.
It so happens that at the bottom of the quotations on that page
was a link to more skepticism quotations.
That was one of the features on Goodreads that I had never explored.
This time I clicked it and got a very long list of quotations. For
the most part I liked all of them. So I kept the Asimov quote
through the second half of October and all of the month of November.
Then came December and I thought it was about time to change my
signature.
I went back to the skepticism page and looked at the quotes again.
This time the two quotations were different.
I think Goodreads automatically rotates which quotations appear on
the genre pages. I did not bother to shop through the long list of
quotations that I would get if I had clicked the more skepticism
quotations link. After all, I like most of them. I just took the
first one and pasted it into my signature line. It makes a point
that I have to keep making over and over myself. Someone will be
beating me over the head with some matter of superstition and I
will ask how they know what they are telling me is true. I get
back, how do you know it isn't? As usual it is because the
probability of it being true is one in infinity.
So Rowling makes my point. There are an infinity of things you
could believe if you believed only because no one has ever proven
it to be false.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 11:32 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I enjoyed your quote: J.K. Rowling “ I mean, you could claim that
anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that
nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
Nonetheless, I am an Agnostic, subset or not.
I neither care, nor believe, nor disbelieve in God or the Hereafter.
I know for certain that this life will end one day. While I
believe that will end my awareness, I'll not know for certain
until I either realize that I still exist in some form or
another, or that I do not.
I am doing all I can do in order to enjoy what years I will
continue in this life.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/7/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, an atheist is simply a person who does not believe that
there is a deity. That makes agnosticism a subset of atheism.
You are an atheist.
________________________________________________________________
_
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/7/2018 11:13 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Greetings Mostafa and all Believers and Non Believers First, I
am not an Atheist, but I do consider myself to be Agnostic.
To my associates that means I'm a Lazy Atheist. I prefer to
say, an uncaring Believer in not much of anything at all.
Second, you are going off again, grouping people under a
heading, even though they are as different as Human Beings can
be. I certainly think of you as being an individual, different
from my Muslim friends, who are also different from one another.
You suggest that we exist in a "perfect universe". Where did
you get that notion? Look about you. This is not a perfect universe.
But we do have to live here, imperfect as it is. Comets zoom
past our little Earth, sometimes slamming into it causing great
damage.
And just look out there and notice all the wasted space that
could be turned into farm land, with streams and lakes and
little towns where we might all live in peace. And we are
dashing out into the unknown at speeds we cannot conceive, headed
where?
Frankly, I would question my Faith if I believed that this
universe was the best that God could do.
And just one last thought. Do you truly believe that this
Earth is Perfect? It is part of the "perfect" universe. And
yet, we were created with the need to kill and devour other life in
order to
survive. If this is Perfection, I tremble to think of what Heaven
looks like.
Carl Jarvis
