Miriam, Carl can speak for himself, but as long as he is not being clear
we can speculate. Here is a speculation. Maybe he shies away from the
word atheist for the same reason I did when I was asked for the first
time if I was an atheist. I have told this story before, but let me
remind you. When I was twelve years old I encountered my first bible
thumping religious fanatic. He was twelve years old too. He was a real
pest. He would not shut up about Jesus and harangued me to let Jesus
into my heart constantly no matter how much I told him that I was not
interested. Finally he flat out asked me if I was an atheist. At that
time I was aware of what an atheist was, but I had never even thought of
it in relation to myself. Actually, I was an atheist. I just didn't know
it. I was certainly nonreligious, but I didn't think of myself as
nonreligious either. I also did not think of myself as an agnostic. I
didn't think of myself as anything in relation to religion. The whole
question was just irrelevant to me. I was just me. But then, I was only
twelve and I had not had time to give a lot of thought to matters like
that and because I was so unthinking I unthinkingly accepted things that
I would later utterly reject. It so happens that every time I had heard
the word atheist it had been used in contexts that it had connotations
of evil and unspeakable horror attached to it. I had just unthinkingly
accepted those connotations. Asking me if I was an atheist was like
asking me if I was a horrible, terrible, evil being. Of course, I denied
being an atheist. But that started me to thinking about what I was. If I
was not an atheist then what was I? I decided that I could not prove
the pest's god to be nonexistent and he for sure could not prove to me
that it did exist. So I decided that I was an agnostic. I continued to
call myself an agnostic for the next four years until I was sixteen and
converted to straight atheism. But even after I converted to straight
atheism I kept calling myself an agnostic for the next two years. Why
did I call myself an agnostic if I had given it up? At the time I was
not quite sure, but in retrospect I think it had a lot to do with my
denying it the first time I was asked. It was hard for me to shake those
connotations of evil that I had learned to associate with atheism.
Agnostic seemed like a much more acceptable word. So my speculation is
that perhaps Carl learned along the way, perhaps in his stint as a born
again Christian, the same connotations and he just can't bring himself
to call himself by a word that he was taught meant something completely
evil.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for believing
in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/9/2018 4:21 PM, Miriam Vieni wrote:
So, you're an Atheist, probably, but you would prefer to define yourself as
agnostic because you don't have a final answer and in addition, you're
stubborn. Did I understand you correctly?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 2:21 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: an open letter to God!
Miriam,
Probably I am not so succinct in my explanation.
What you wrote is pretty much what I'm thinking the differences are.
So I'll try to muddy up the waters a bit more.
#1, It doesn't matter.
#2, It makes no difference to me how other folks define me.
#3, Proving or disproving the existence of any Deity or some sort of Afterlife
is not possible with our present abilities.
#4, There are no such things as miracles or super natural events.
There are happenings for which we have no answers, given our present level of
knowledge.
Remember, I am a rehabilitation teacher for the blind and low vision folks. I
am not now, nor ever wanted to be, a scientist. I do possess a natural sense
of curiosity, and so I do speculate on such subjects as whether God exists.
But the God being worshiped around today's world, in His many forms, is a Man
made, two dimensional Toothless Paper Tiger, not to be confused with answering
the question of whether or not there is a Super Natural Being.
Given everything I don't know, it would be presumptuous of me to take a
position.
When you ask a two year old child if the light goes out or stays on when you
close the refrigerator door, the child will ponder the question and then guess.
But given a few years and some training in such matters, the young person will
explain how the door pushes on the button that interrupts the power to the
bulb, thus causing the light to go out when the door is closed.
It will take much longer for the human race to gain the knowledge to determine how the
universe began, and whether or not there is "intelligent Life" controlling it
all.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/9/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well Carl, I may be confused. These days, I'll admit to being confused
about a lot of things and I'd never want to interfere with your
identity or personhood or whatever so, this is what is in my mind.
People who identify themselves as Agnostics, do so because an Agnostic
is someone who isn't sure whether or not God exists. So the person who
calls himself an Agnostic is saying, "I can't take a position on this
matter because I just don't know".
A person who identifies himself as an Atheist, does not believe that
there is a God who rules the universe. It's as simple as that.
You, Carl, in numerous posts, over all of the years that I've been a
member of this list, have indicated your non belief in God. You
haven't said that you were not sure about whether or not God exists.
Therefore, from what I understand the definition of an Atheist to be, you are
one.
So, either you could find a definition of Agnostic somewhere that is
different from what I thought it was, or you could explain that, in
fact, you're not taking a position on the existence of God because
you're really not sure whether or not he/she/it, exists.
Otherwise, whether or not you acknowledge the fact, you are an Atheist.
With Love,
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2018 11:09 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: an open letter to God!
Dear God...if indeed you are God, and you do exist, and you are
listening to me and not running around in other universes or sitting
on your throne listening to the sound of billions of harps.
God, sir or madam as the case may be, I have such great respect and
caring for both Roger and Miriam, yet we have come up against a
roadblock. They tell me that I am an Atheist, while I declare myself
as an Agnostic. We are just three very stubborn humans, and this
matter is never going to be resolved by us 3 mortals. So if you
wouldn't mind, Sir or Madam as the case may be, if you wouldn't mind,
could you send an answer for us? One that we all 3 can understand.
None of this burning bush stuff. No plague or Flood. I know! If you
were to drop bundles of hundred dollar bills, like several millions,
onto my deck, instead of that nasty tasting Manna, that would let
Roger and Miriam know that You are really out there...or up there, whichever
way is up.
Hmm...I think I missed my point. But I would really do good stuff if
you could spare the money.
So, I close in the name of You, and of your Son, Jesus, and of the
Holy Smoke.
Carl Jarvis
(who is now headed for the deck to see if anything dropped out of the sky"
On 12/8/18, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree with Roger. I think that Carl is an atheist, but he doesn't
want to use the term either because he thinks that it means that he
is asserting that there's no God, rather than that he doesn't believe
in God or, because there are some public Atheists who write about the
subject and whose writing tends to be very unpleasant, often
including a good deal of bigotry along with their thoughts about the
non existence of God. Christopher Hitchens is one who comes to mind.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 8:29 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Carl Jarvis <carjar82@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: responding to Mostafa
You spend a lot of time here expressing an atheist position to be
shying away from the word atheist. Maybe you should just break down
and admit to being one. I told the story once here about how I came
to break down and admit it. It was when I was in a college class and
someone told me that I kept taking atheist positions so why didn't I
just call myself an atheist. I said that, okay, I'm an atheist, and I
haven't stopped calling myself that since. And I had been an atheist,
not the agnostic kind, for about two years at the time. But when I
was an agnostic form of atheist for about four years, from the age of
twelve to the age of sixteen, I had been making the mistake of
equating the probability of there being a god and the probability of
there not being a god. In retrospect I realize that I just had not
thought it through. I did not even realize that I was equating the
two propositions. I just thought that I couldn't prove it one way or another.
So I didn't know whether there was a god or not.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis for
believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 5:50 PM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I think that earlier I mentioned that I like the quote by Isaac
Asimov. I used to read his Science Article in Galaxy Magazine.
Later, when the Asimov Science Fiction magazine was published in
Braille, I subscribed in order to improve my Braille skills. I was
very disappointed when they cancelled the Braille edition. I still
get the recorded magazine from the Talking Book and Braille Library,
but only glance at it from time to time.
In fact, I do not consider that there is any chance that God
exists...or not. No 50/50 chance.
When I walked away from Christianity, it was because I tired of
people so certain regarding the existence of something they only had
second hand stories as proof. But I don't care what they believe.
And working with so many elderly people who express deep Faith, I
say nothing. Seldom do we discuss religion with our clients, but
once in a while we are pressed into a corner. Of course we could
say, "we are not allowed to discuss religion", but I refuse to be
bound by bureaucratic mumbling, either. So this woman said, "I'm so
glad good Christians have come to see me". I said, "Thank you, but
we're not Christian". She sat silent for a minute, and then said,
"But my dogs love you. If you were not Believers they would not let you enter."
She continued along these lines for some while, not wanting to
accept my word that I was not a Christian. Finally, after going
around and around, I asked her, "Do you believe that God created
Adam and Eve, and put them in the Garden of Eden? Do you believe
that Noah built a boat big enough to put two of every animal on board?"
"Yes", she confirmed. "Yes! God did exactly that." I said, "Then
we have nothing to discuss."
I often think about so many people I've known who feel driven to
force me to accept their beliefs. When I'm in the mood, I try to
get them to accept that there is really a Tooth Fairy". "I know
there is a Tooth Fairy," I assure them, "Because whenever I lost a
tooth, a dime appeared under my pillow in place of the tooth. And
my mother told me that it was the Tooth Fairy. She said she saw it
sneak in while I was sleeping." They act as if I'd lost my mind.
How could I honestly believe such silliness? "well," I tell them,
"you expect me to believe in an invisible God and His buddy the Holy
Spirit, and if you are Catholic, you also tell me that Mother Mary
is there to intercede.
And all of this is simply on the second hand word of long dead men
who wrote a book. By the way, did you know that Tinker Bell is real?
I saw her in a movie."
I'm told that I am being silly! I'm assured that Faith is very
complex and sophisticated. I tell them that if God's Word is so
complicated that it takes someone really smart, like them, then I
have to question just how truly wise God is. Don't you think He
would make His Word simple enough that the dumbest of us would
understand?
Religion is simply a tool of those in control. It may also be a
shield from the knowledge that we humans understand, our mortality,
something much of animal life does not deal with. But in truth,
believing in God answers nothing, including the proof it would take
to demonstrate God's presence. Hmm, I do believe I'm going around
in circles. That is scary. If I keep it up I might find myself
creating God.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I still think you are falsely assuming an even chance between the
existence or nonexistence of a deity. As for the J. K. Rowling
quote, you might remember that I used to have a quote in my
signature line that I changed every month. I originally started
that because there were so many religious signatures on these blind
lists and I wanted to counter them a bit. But it was getting harder
to find a quote that I had not used and so when I upgraded to
Windows 7 and started using Thunderbird with it I just went back to
no signature just because it was easier that way. But I use the
Goodreads site. I have still not quite fully explored it, though,
even though I have now been using it for years. But it turns out
that Goodreads has a feature for looking up genres of literature.
There are a lot of genres and I think Goodreads recognizes more
than the publishers do. Once you open up a page dedicated to a
particular genre you find lists of books in that genre including
new books, most popular books, lists related to the genre and so
forth. One of the features is a couple of quotations related to the
genre. So back in mid October I was looking at the genre page for
skepticism and under skepticism quotations was one by Isaac Asimov
that I really liked. So I decided to start putting a signature line
on my emails again and I pasted that Asimov quote. It so happens
that at the bottom of the quotations on that page was a link to
more skepticism quotations.
That was one of the features on Goodreads that I had never explored.
This time I clicked it and got a very long list of quotations. For
the most part I liked all of them. So I kept the Asimov quote
through the second half of October and all of the month of November.
Then came December and I thought it was about time to change my
signature.
I went back to the skepticism page and looked at the quotes again.
This time the two quotations were different.
I think Goodreads automatically rotates which quotations appear on
the genre pages. I did not bother to shop through the long list of
quotations that I would get if I had clicked the more skepticism
quotations link. After all, I like most of them. I just took the
first one and pasted it into my signature line. It makes a point
that I have to keep making over and over myself. Someone will be
beating me over the head with some matter of superstition and I
will ask how they know what they are telling me is true. I get
back, how do you know it isn't? As usual it is because the
probability of it being true is one in infinity.
So Rowling makes my point. There are an infinity of things you
could believe if you believed only because no one has ever proven
it to be false.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/8/2018 11:32 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Roger,
I enjoyed your quote: J.K. Rowling “ I mean, you could claim that
anything's real if the only basis for believing in it is that
nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
Nonetheless, I am an Agnostic, subset or not.
I neither care, nor believe, nor disbelieve in God or the Hereafter.
I know for certain that this life will end one day. While I
believe that will end my awareness, I'll not know for certain
until I either realize that I still exist in some form or another,
or that I do not.
I am doing all I can do in order to enjoy what years I will
continue in this life.
Carl Jarvis
On 12/7/18, Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl, an atheist is simply a person who does not believe that
there is a deity. That makes agnosticism a subset of atheism. You
are an atheist.
_________________________________________________________________
J.K. Rowling
“ I mean, you could claim that anything's real if the only basis
for believing in it is that nobody's proved it doesn't exist! ”
― J.K. Rowling
On 12/7/2018 11:13 AM, Carl Jarvis wrote:
Greetings Mostafa and all Believers and Non Believers First, I
am not an Atheist, but I do consider myself to be Agnostic.
To my associates that means I'm a Lazy Atheist. I prefer to
say, an uncaring Believer in not much of anything at all.
Second, you are going off again, grouping people under a
heading, even though they are as different as Human Beings can
be. I certainly think of you as being an individual, different
from my Muslim friends, who are also different from one another.
You suggest that we exist in a "perfect universe". Where did
you get that notion? Look about you. This is not a perfect universe.
But we do have to live here, imperfect as it is. Comets zoom
past our little Earth, sometimes slamming into it causing great
damage.
And just look out there and notice all the wasted space that
could be turned into farm land, with streams and lakes and
little towns where we might all live in peace. And we are
dashing out into the unknown at speeds we cannot conceive, headed where?
Frankly, I would question my Faith if I believed that this
universe was the best that God could do.
And just one last thought. Do you truly believe that this Earth
is Perfect? It is part of the "perfect" universe. And yet, we
were created with the need to kill and devour other life in order to
survive. If this is Perfection, I tremble to think of what Heaven
looks like.
Carl Jarvis
