Well, they still call their leadership the Communist Party in China, but
they've certainly drifted far from anything like Communism nowadays; but
even back in the Eighties they had given up whatever they were trying that
they officially called Communist, even though they kept the label.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 3:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Way back in the 80's, one of the adoptive parents whom I knew, who, with two
other people, started a small adoption agency in New York City to place
minority children, had been properly brainwashed by public schools, and the
corporate media. She was this lovely, concerned, sort of liberal, Orthodox
Jewish woman, very kind. I was professionally involved with her little
agency and with her, in a rather complex manner. Anyway, the agency began
doing home studies for international adoptions. Then, in perhaps 1989 or
1990, adoptions of Chinese children by Americans began, and they rapidly
increased in number. My friend had great difficulty dealing with the whole
issue of adoptions from China and each time she talked about them, she would
refer to them as, adoptions from Communist China". It wasn't a racial thing.
She had a daughter adopted from South Korea which, I suppose, was very
acceptable, South Korea being run, at the time, by an autocratic capitalist
government supported by the US. And that reminds me. When we were adopting
Melanie from Vietnam, adoption procedures were different than just a few
years later. Back then, the US government did not require that a home study
be done by a licensed adoption agency or by a professionally qualified
social worker. There was a home visit to the home of prospective adoptive
parents by an immigration officer, wearing a uniform with a gun, visible in
a holster. That was back in 1973. The man asked us a series of questions and
he also searched our house. We lived in a little levitt house back then with
bookshelves set in a brick wall over the fireplace. And in that bookcase,
just before the investigator arrived, I remembered that I had a book written
by anti-war veterans about war crimes being committed by American soldiers
in Vietnam. As his car was pulling into our driveway, I quickly took the
book off the shelf and put it in a dresser drawer under my underwear.
Anyway, among the questions that the man asked us was if our daughter, (13
months old at the time and in an orphanage in Quang Tri), was a North
Vietnamese child, meaning, I suppose, that if she were, she'd be an enemy
and ineligible for immigration here.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 2:59 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
It's interesting. Although in my lifetime, 1935 - 2018(and counting), I've
heard much about Communism, but seen no examples of it. On the other hand,
I've seen many examples of Capitalism in one form or another. This would
bnormally indicate that Capitalism is superior to Communism.
But if Capitalism is so superior, then what do we say about the large
majority of subjects suffering in poverty and poor health? Is the debate
really over Communism versus Capitalism, or is it over Power and Control
versus powerless and victimization?
Are we really so indifferent that we can turn our backs on Billions of
Victims? Some of my acquaintances shrug and say that this is just the way
it has always been. Others say that some people do not possess the skills
needed to compete.
But I say that I lost track of time and need to head out to serve a new
client.
Carl Jarvis
On 11/8/18, Roger Loran Bailey <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You are naming some people who I do not even consider communists, but
even among the several varieties of Stalinists they never claimed to
be trying communism. Even they held communism to be a goal.
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe
in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in
life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of
unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation,
measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll
believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is
evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however,
the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 11/3/2018 9:37 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, there are some people who have said they were trying it. In
China, Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, et cetera.
Were all these people using the wrong word when they said they were
trying to implement Communism? Mao, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot?
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 9:30 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Evan Reese
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Evan wrote in part: "but it would have to be a new economic theory,
not one that has failed every single time it has been tried, as
Communism has."
Other than the very large majority of time that humans existed, that
time before the rise of class society, just when and where has
communism ever been tried?
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe
in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? —
in life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of
unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation,
measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll
believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is
evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is,
however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 11/1/2018 5:01 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, I guess I would have to agree with you that I would be in
favor of replacing our current economic system with a better one.
But perhaps we might disagree in that I do not believe that better
economic system has been invented yet. And, I am doubtful that any
economic system could work any better than one similar to what we
have now, given the nature of people.
I am thinking that perhaps a better economic system is out there,
but not for humans as we are currently constituted, given, as I
said, that hierarchy seems to be wired into us at the genetic level.
I am open to being proved wrong about this, but it would have to be
a new economic theory, not one that has failed every single time it
has been tried, as Communism has.
Now if technology ever advances to the point where material scarcity
is eliminated, then people would not have to work to obtain food and
shelter, and as much entertainment and information as they can shake
a stick at. There are people who believe that that is actually
coming. If that ever does happen, then perhaps a better economic
system will replace the one we have now. Who knows? It might even
look something like Communism. Until that time, I think we have to
work toward improving the system we have.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 4:43 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
That's because you don't know what I really think. You and Evan make
assumptions about what I think by contrasting the words I write with
your point of view. But I would absolutely be in favor of replacing
our current economic system with a better one. I'm not sure that
State Socialism would be the one I'd choose, but then, I don't claim
to have expertise in that sort of thing. But what you are sensing is
that I think that we have to be realistic and work with what we have
toward a complete change. If you listen to Alan Nearn on today's
Democracy Now, he's describing what I think we need to do right now.
We can't ignore the political system we have, no matter how bad the
corporate Democrats are, they are not the outlaw gangster party that
the Republicans have become. So yes, I think that people need to do
what Bernie Sanders is trying to do. At the same time, I think there
needs to be organizing outside of the system and building of
movements. The difference between you and me is that you have
studied Marxism and you see history and change necessarily through a
Marxist framework. My ideas of cooperation and socialism are
unschooled and much less doctrinaire. But I do listen to Richard
Wolfe each week who's a Marxist economist and is attempting to teach
his version of Marxism to the masses, and when I listen to Brian
Becker on Loud and Cleare, I'm being influenced by him. He's clearly
a socialist organizer. I don't know which socialist sect, but he's
interpreting facts according to socialist theory. And I don't have
any problem with either of them. I'm liberal, in the old fashioned
sense, being willing to learn and read various points of view, well,
some points of view. But as I've mentioned numerous times, I'm
rebellious, and I don't fit neatly into foxes, not the Jewish box or
the Caucasian box, (I did racially integrate my family), or the
suburban box, (I love nature but I hate the suburbs and I'm now
living in a place that I despise), or the old woman box.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 3:10 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Evan Reese
<mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
I don't think I ever used the phrase true leftist. When I mention
liberalism I usually call it bourgeois liberalism and contrast it to
radicalism. I call it bourgeois liberalism because it is a bourgeois
ideology. That is, it defends or assumes the permanence of the
current class system, capitalism. It is an ideology that
concentrates on making the system somehow nicer without any
perspective at all of replacing it.
Radicalism, on the other hand, proposes the complete replacement of
capitalism. By that measure I have never known Miriam to be anything
but a bourgeois liberal.
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe
in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? —
in life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of
unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation,
measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll
believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is
evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is,
however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 10/30/2018 9:10 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Haha, a liberal instead of a true leftist. I like that. It is
certainly easy to get overly concerned about labels.
I've been writing too much here. I need a break.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 9:04 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Evan,
I feel like we are arguing instead of talking. I'm not sure that
I've always said negative things about our country on this list. Of
course, I've been here for at least 11 years and I was on it for a
few years previous to those eleven years. And it's difficult for me
to know how what I write comes across. I've had debates with
various folks on the list before. Roger has often accused me of
being a liberal rather than a true leftist. Carl and I have
quibbled over whether or not to use the term, "middle class", in
certain contexts. I use the term. He does not. I once got into
trouble with someone who is no longer on the list because I said
that I didn't think the White House should have a Christmas tree
lighting because I thought that a Christmas tree is a symbol of a
religious holiday and we are supposed to have a separation between
church and state. I've had differences with Richard over a number
of things, specifically, the Koch Brothers about whom his feelings
are more positive than mine. Frank and I have quarreled about the
Green Party and about Bernie Sanders. So certainly, I've had
disagreements with folks. But I don't think that I was accused of
being negative. You've indicated that all of us on the list sound
negative and you do remind me of Ted. Ted was a list member for
many years and he was kind of politically in the center. He'd been farther right politically previously.
He left the list and accused us all of being, "left wing radicals"
which, to
him was a very negative thing to be. I think that perhaps, you mean
somewhat the same thing when you call me, or us, negative.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 8:09 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Hmmm, if you think I have ever said that people should only say
good things about our country or our economic system, you just
aren't reading what I've said.
There is a huge difference between being critical and being ONLY
critical.
That's the difference between me and most people here.
If you take all my messages together, you will find that I have
been critical, but not only critical. By the same token, if you
take all my messages together, you will find that I have been
positive, but not only positive. Any positive thing you say is
grudging at best, and only after serious prodding. That is a very large difference.
Evan
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 6:31 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
You know, a Democracy requires varying opinions, dissent, give and
take. You are defining criticism as being negative. Paul Jay isn't
negative. He runs a news organization which is attempting to give
balanced, honest reporting of local, national, and international
news to people. He's describing, in part of this Q &A, his view of
the real issues in our country. Being critical of what is happening
and trying to make things better for people is actually what good
citizens should do. I don't want to be insulting, but in a way,
you're sounding like Mr. Trump who thinks that everyone around him,
including the press, should say only positive things about him and
what he's doing. You think that everyone in the US should say only
positive things about our economic system. I note that in your
response to Mary's email before, you mentioned something about how
the Scandanavian countries do more for the, I think you said,
"unfortunate people", in their population.
Maybe
that wasn't the word, but you ad the population divided up. The
point is that we need to have a society where people are treated
equally well and have equal access to goods and services,
regardless of their backgrounds or particular skill sets. We all
need good medical care, adequate housing, nourishing food. There's
no reason for one person to own 5 homes with full staffs in each
while some people are homeless and starving.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 5:27 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Well if you agree with it I'm sure it'll be all negative then.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:44 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] about Real News
I just forwarded a digest. I recommend you listen to the discussion
between Ben Norton and Paul Jay. Paul Jay describes are current
political and economic situation in a way with which I pretty much
agree.
Miriam
