I'm not Roger and I don't know Marxist theory.
My feeling is that each country has its own history and culture and when it
attempts to adopt a system, thought up by someone in western Europe, you're
going to see something very different in each country and it isn't going to
work like marx described it. Is what we have in the US the capitalism that Adam
Smith described?
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 9:41 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Well, there are some people who have said they were trying it. In China,
Russia, Vietnam, Cambodia, et cetera.
Were all these people using the wrong word when they said they were trying to
implement Communism? Mao, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot?
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Loran Bailey
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2018 9:30 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Evan Reese
Subject: Re: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Evan wrote in part: "but it would have to be a new economic theory, not one
that has failed every single time it has been tried, as Communism has."
Other than the very large majority of time that humans existed, that time
before the rise of class society, just when and where has communism ever been
tried?
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe in
telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in life after
death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of unrelieved
negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement,
and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no
matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and
more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence
will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 11/1/2018 5:01 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Well, I guess I would have to agree with you that I would be in favor
of replacing our current economic system with a better one. But
perhaps we might disagree in that I do not believe that better
economic system has been invented yet. And, I am doubtful that any
economic system could work any better than one similar to what we have
now, given the nature of people.
I am thinking that perhaps a better economic system is out there, but
not for humans as we are currently constituted, given, as I said, that
hierarchy seems to be wired into us at the genetic level. I am open to
being proved wrong about this, but it would have to be a new economic
theory, not one that has failed every single time it has been tried,
as Communism has.
Now if technology ever advances to the point where material scarcity
is eliminated, then people would not have to work to obtain food and
shelter, and as much entertainment and information as they can shake a stick
at.
There are people who believe that that is actually coming. If that
ever does happen, then perhaps a better economic system will replace
the one we have now. Who knows? It might even look something like
Communism. Until that time, I think we have to work toward improving the
system we have.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 4:43 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
That's because you don't know what I really think. You and Evan make
assumptions about what I think by contrasting the words I write with
your point of view. But I would absolutely be in favor of replacing
our current economic system with a better one. I'm not sure that State
Socialism would be the one I'd choose, but then, I don't claim to have
expertise in that sort of thing. But what you are sensing is that I
think that we have to be realistic and work with what we have toward a
complete change. If you listen to Alan Nearn on today's Democracy Now,
he's describing what I think we need to do right now. We can't ignore
the political system we have, no matter how bad the corporate
Democrats are, they are not the outlaw gangster party that the
Republicans have become. So yes, I think that people need to do what
Bernie Sanders is trying to do. At the same time, I think there needs
to be organizing outside of the system and building of movements. The
difference between you and me is that you have studied Marxism and you
see history and change necessarily through a Marxist framework. My
ideas of cooperation and socialism are unschooled and much less
doctrinaire. But I do listen to Richard Wolfe each week who's a
Marxist economist and is attempting to teach his version of Marxism to
the masses, and when I listen to Brian Becker on Loud and Cleare, I'm
being influenced by him. He's clearly a socialist organizer. I don't
know which socialist sect, but he's interpreting facts according to
socialist theory. And I don't have any problem with either of them.
I'm liberal, in the old fashioned sense, being willing to learn and
read various points of view, well, some points of view. But as I've
mentioned numerous times, I'm rebellious, and I don't fit neatly into
foxes, not the Jewish box or the Caucasian box, (I did racially
integrate my family), or the suburban box, (I love nature but I hate the
suburbs and I'm now living in a place that I despise), or the old woman box.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 3:10 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Evan Reese <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
I don't think I ever used the phrase true leftist. When I mention
liberalism I usually call it bourgeois liberalism and contrast it to
radicalism. I call it bourgeois liberalism because it is a bourgeois
ideology. That is, it defends or assumes the permanence of the current
class system, capitalism. It is an ideology that concentrates on
making the system somehow nicer without any perspective at all of replacing
it.
Radicalism, on the other hand, proposes the complete replacement of
capitalism. By that measure I have never known Miriam to be anything
but a bourgeois liberal.
_________________________________________________________________
Isaac Asimov
“Don't you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don't you believe
in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in
life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of
unrelieved negation, burst out "Don't you believe in anything?"
Yes", I said. "I believe in evidence. I believe in observation,
measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll
believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is
evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however,
the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
― Isaac Asimov
On 10/30/2018 9:10 PM, Evan Reese wrote:
Haha, a liberal instead of a true leftist. I like that. It is
certainly easy to get overly concerned about labels.
I've been writing too much here. I need a break.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 9:04 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Evan,
I feel like we are arguing instead of talking. I'm not sure that I've
always said negative things about our country on this list. Of
course, I've been here for at least 11 years and I was on it for a
few years previous to those eleven years. And it's difficult for me
to know how what I write comes across. I've had debates with various
folks on the list before. Roger has often accused me of being a
liberal rather than a true leftist. Carl and I have quibbled over
whether or not to use the term, "middle class", in certain contexts.
I use the term. He does not. I once got into trouble with someone who
is no longer on the list because I said that I didn't think the White
House should have a Christmas tree lighting because I thought that a
Christmas tree is a symbol of a religious holiday and we are supposed
to have a separation between church and state. I've had differences
with Richard over a number of things, specifically, the Koch Brothers
about whom his feelings are more positive than mine. Frank and I have
quarreled about the Green Party and about Bernie Sanders. So
certainly, I've had disagreements with folks. But I don't think that
I was accused of being negative. You've indicated that all of us on
the list sound negative and you do remind me of Ted. Ted was a list
member for many years and he was kind of politically in the center.
He'd been farther right politically previously.
He left the list and accused us all of being, "left wing radicals"
which, to
him was a very negative thing to be. I think that perhaps, you mean
somewhat the same thing when you call me, or us, negative.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 8:09 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Hmmm, if you think I have ever said that people should only say good
things about our country or our economic system, you just aren't
reading what I've said.
There is a huge difference between being critical and being ONLY
critical.
That's the difference between me and most people here.
If you take all my messages together, you will find that I have been
critical, but not only critical. By the same token, if you take all
my messages together, you will find that I have been positive, but
not only positive. Any positive thing you say is grudging at best,
and only after serious prodding. That is a very large difference.
Evan
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 6:31 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
You know, a Democracy requires varying opinions, dissent, give and
take. You are defining criticism as being negative. Paul Jay isn't
negative. He runs a news organization which is attempting to give
balanced, honest reporting of local, national, and international news
to people. He's describing, in part of this Q &A, his view of the
real issues in our country. Being critical of what is happening and
trying to make things better for people is actually what good
citizens should do. I don't want to be insulting, but in a way,
you're sounding like Mr. Trump who thinks that everyone around him,
including the press, should say only positive things about him and
what he's doing. You think that everyone in the US should say only
positive things about our economic system. I note that in your
response to Mary's email before, you mentioned something about how
the Scandanavian countries do more for the, I think you said,
"unfortunate people", in their population.
Maybe
that wasn't the word, but you ad the population divided up. The point
is that we need to have a society where people are treated equally
well and have equal access to goods and services, regardless of their
backgrounds or particular skill sets. We all need good medical care,
adequate housing, nourishing food. There's no reason for one person
to own 5 homes with full staffs in each while some people are
homeless and starving.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Evan Reese
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 5:27 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: about Real News
Well if you agree with it I'm sure it'll be all negative then.
Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:44 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] about Real News
I just forwarded a digest. I recommend you listen to the discussion
between Ben Norton and Paul Jay. Paul Jay describes are current
political and economic situation in a way with which I pretty much
agree.
Miriam
