If you have a viable plan to win a bourgeois election rigged by the
bourgeoisie for the bourgeoisie then you are only committed to the
bourgeoisie, not the working class. If you are committed to the working
class you will lead them away from the bourgeois electoral system to
organize independently. That may mean running candidates for propaganda
purposes, but it does not mean planning to win the election so that you
can administer the bourgeois state for the bourgeoisie. Fuck the
bourgeois elections!
On 3/24/2016 9:38 PM, Frank Ventura wrote:
Miriam, the problem here is that, as you said yourself, Jill stein (and sadly probably
Sanders as well) doesn't have a chance of winning. You can't be committed to the working
class, or anyone else for that matter, if you don't have a viable plan to win an
election. Just running to be a spoiler doesn't make you committed to the working class.
As far as not knowing them, you are being very presumptious about that. In reality I have
a 7 degrees of separation thing personaly with Sanders and although I generally like the
guy he still is a political machine; not exactally one of us, if there is really anything
as "us" left.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Miriam Vieni
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 6:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
I think you are doing a disservice to both Sanders and Stein, probably because
you haven't read anything about who they really are or their actual lives. The
question is, who is it who is actually committed to working people and middle
class people. The Democratic Party Establishment, funded by Wall Street and
corporations, and represented by Hillary Clinton worth millions and millions of
dollars, talks the talk, but does not walk the walk. There are Progressive
Democrats, but even they are limited by the party establishment. If they don't
tow the party line, they lose party funding. The Party didn't even give support
to unions. The party has been good on LBGT rights and a woman's right to
choose. They've been good on voter rights although from all I've been reading
lately, the voting machines are so easily hackable, that it may not matter whom
one votes for if there is a Republican in charge of voting in one's state. But
I have a Democratic Congress woman and she, and the one before her, have voted
against the interests of the people just about every time. And one of my
Democratic Senators, Chuck Schumer, is no friend of the working man either.
Hillary was on the board of Walmart. The fact that the Republicans are
religious fascists, doesn't justify what the Democrats have been doing to
immigrants, to people of color, to poor people, to working people and, in case
you have forgotten, to blind people. Sservices for the blind are not what they
were.
All of you competent, employed, tech savvy people seem to have forgotten about
the less well favored blind folks. As chuck said, his life is comfortable.
It's an American white middle class attitude. But in fact, all of us are
damaged when huge numbers of our people are damaged and Americans are in danger
when the rest of the world's population is in danger. There are no perfect
candidates. But for honesty and integrity, I'd choose bernie or Jill over
Hillary any day.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Frank Ventura
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 4:08 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Chuck, while I did vote for Sanders in the primary, I am already regretting it.
Sadly, Sanders is starting to sound more and more like Jill Stein; that is
someone who merely wants to derail the democratic party and put a Republican in
the oval office out of some sort of protest. The sad truth is that after Stein
and Sanders get their jollies with their protest against the mainstream
Democratic party they will go back to their comfy suburban homes and sit back
with a glass of wine; while the rest of us working class suffer the onslaught
of President Trump or President Cruz and all the horrors for our nation that it
has brought. So a year from now when President Trump's death squads are roaming
the streets killing the working class Bernie and Jill will be sitting back
watching it all on Foxnews while their private security forces guard their
nicely manicured lawns.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Krugman
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 2:00 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Miriam, in 2008 you voted for a typical Chicago politician. Spending time in
Chicago growing up in the sixties I found the political machine in power
fascinating. My problem is that I just don't like or agree with Bernie Sanders
and don't believe he is electable nor does he possess the image of an American
president. While There are lots of things I didn't like about the Clinton
Administration and I believe that Hillary was an active participant in the
decisionmaking process and since I don't support the extreme principles of
third parties I feel that in this election I'm voting for the lesser of the
evils. I guess that there is still part of me that buys in to the capitalistic
mentality.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 11:43 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
I live in New York which, probably, will continue to be a blue state.
However, whatever kind of state it is, my vote, if Bernie isn't the Democratic
candidate, will go to Jill Stein. It won't go to Trump and it won't go to the
Clinton machine. In 2008, I thought I was voting for a Democratic candidate who
represented the values in which I believed. I knew that he was a bit to the
right in terms of Afghanistan, but I tought he was a Liberal Democrat who
believed in the rule of law, in open government. I discovered that I'd voted
for an opportunist, an elitist, for a President who would ignore the
constitution whenever it got in the way of his appeasement of the security
state, of a President who was ready to cut social security benefits, and who
made unacceptable bargains with Republicans before it was necessary to do so.
And he is the more Ppogressive of the two. If I vote for Hillary, I'd be voting
for someone whose Neo Liberal policies are more warlike, who is even more
comfortable with the elites, who will increase the US appeasement of Israel,
whose concern about African Americans is pure fiction, and who uses her
femaleness as a means to gain support from femininsts. I can't, in good
consciience do it. No, I don't want Trump as President. But the fact that
Clinton uses whatever words , she thinks, will get votes from the Democratic
base, doesn't reassure me. I listened to Robert Sheer's discussion with Thomas
Frank this morning on an audio clip on Truthdig. Are you aware that Bill
Clinton was about to privatize social security? What stopped him? The Monica
Lewinsky scandal. These Democrats, aside from social issues, LGBT rights,
abortion rights, are not anymore the party of the working people.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles Krugman ;(Redacted
sender "ckrugman" for DMARC)
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 2:07 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
whether we might like it or not any vote that doesn't go to Hillary including
those on principle to minor candidates could very strongly result in the trump
presidency that no thinking person wants.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:21 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
Well, voting for Clinton means voting for more of what we have now which means
more wealth going to the 1%, more power for trans national corporations, larger
even less regulated banks, and an escalation of war.
Voting for trump may very well mean and out and out war at home on minorities
along with what I outlined above. One can't tell what Trump will actdually do
in terms of international policy because his statements are contradictory. I
caught a short interview with the author of a biography of Trump on NPR last
night. Briefly, he said Trump never reads books, does not focus on one subject
when you talk with him, but thinks just the way he sounds in his speeches, and
his basically and ego maniac, although he didn't use that term. I can't
visualize myself voting for Hillary because I can't think of any positives in
her favor. But certainly, the prospect of a Trump Presidency is unthinkable.
Miriam
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:27 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard
Questions For Sanders Campaign and His Youthful Supporters
As the World turns...so turn firm resolves.
Of course it's early yet, but winning the primary appears to be slipping from
the old, experienced hands of Senator Bernie Sanders.
To date I have held to my resolve to vote for Sanders, and then if he does not
win the Party nomination, to vote for Jill Stein, of the Green Party.
But that was before the Republicans trotted out their Party's Best, the Clown
Crew.
And, as we all guffawed and chuckled over their noisy sideshow, an awful thing
happened. One of the clowns began to look like something out of the 1940's. A
full blown Fascist!
Ranting and raving and telling one big lie after another, Donald Trump rose
like the Phoenix, out of the ashes of the Third Reich.
Despite the Republican Party's denial that he has the popular Party support,
Trump stomps about, stirring up the rank and file, and winning in state after
state.
We now are upon the brink of National disaster. One direction leads to a
Fascist State, and the other leads to a Corporate State. And we have only
ourselves to blame.
If the choice comes down to Clinton or Trump, or even Clinton or Cruz, we will need to
decide if we hold to our original plan to support Stein, or to "throw away" our
vote in an effort to block the takeover of our emerging Corporate State by the Fascist
State. What a choice!
Just a fair warning that I am not ruling out a vote for Hillary Clinton.
Carl Jarvis
On 3/16/16, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home > Trump andTrump.
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters ________________________________________
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters By Steven Rosenfeld [1] /
AlterNet [2] March 15, 2016 Bernie Sanders' historic and
expectation-surpassing bid for the Democratic presidential nomination
ran into hard reality in several pivotal primary contests Tuesday,
where he could not break Hillary Clinton's hold on voters in several
critical battleground states needed to win in the fall-notably Ohio
and Florida.
While Sanders supporters will point to his narrow victory in Missouri,
and overwhelming support among independents who voted in the
Democratic primary, Clinton's victories in those fall battleground
states-as well as South Carolina and Illinois-means that it is
virtually impossible for Sanders to win the delegates needed [3] for
the party's nomination. That fact undoubtedly will take days to seep
into his remarkable grassroots campaign, where it remains to be seen
how Sanders will continue his quest or align himself with Clinton-who
he's criticized for some stances but praised as a person of integrity.
The backdrop for that as-yet unknown calculation is the deeply
disconcerting continuing rise of Donald Trump toward the Republican
nomination, who has continued to amass a delegate lead-winning in
Florida, Illinois, South Carolina and Missouri. Although Ohio Gov.
John Kasich beat Trump in his home state, his first victory on 2016,
his chances-based on the GOP's delegate nomination math-are an even
longer shot than Sanders catching up with Clinton and wresting the
nomination. Under the current Republican National Committee rules, a
candidate needs to have won at least eight states to have their name
placed in nomination for the presidency. That renders Kasich's pledge
to supporters that he will win this fall as little more than campaign
magical thinking.
"Only one campaign has beaten Donald Trump over and over and over again,"
said Sen. Ted Cruz, also striking a defiant tone despite losing in
every state Tuesday, including by several thousand votes in Missouri
to
Cruz recited his pledge to recast the federal government and judiciaryTuesday's results.
in the most ideological right-wing mold possible, go after enemies
abroad, and said he was the only alternative to Trump. "Starting
tomorrow morning, there is a clear choice," Cruz said, posturing
before supporters in Texas.
Trump's victory in Florida prompted Marco Rubio to suspend his
campaign, telling his backers that it was not in "God's plans" for him
to win "in
2016
or maybe ever." He also implored Republicans to reject the hateful
politics pedaled by Trump, saying, "I ask the American people, 'Do not
give into the fear. Do not give into the frustration.'"
Tuesday's top two storylines-Trump's rise and Clinton all-but ending
Sanders' chances of winning sufficient delegates to be the
nominee-came together in her remarks, where she underscored that she
had won fair and square but tried to reach out to Sanders' team. "Our
campaign has won more votes than any other campaign-Democrat or
Republican," began Clinton, in remarks from Palm Beach, "and I want to
congratulate Sen. Sanders for the vigorous campaign he has waged."
Clinton said she needed the support of Democrats across the country,
and then focused on Trump but cited many issues raised by Sanders.
"Tonight, it is clearer than ever that this may be one of the most
consequential campaigns of our lifetimes," she said. "The next
president will walk into the oval office next year in January, and sit
down at that desk, and start making decisions that will affect the
lives and the livelihoods of everyone in this country and indeed,
everyone on this planet."
Clinton said the next president has three major challenges: making
positive differences in people's lives, keeping America safe and
bringing the country together. The first example she gave was a direct
nod to Sanders and his popularity with voters under age 35. "Young
people across America struggling under the weight of student debt find
it difficult to imagine the futures they want," she said, "and they
deserve a president who will relieve them of that burden and help
future generations go to college without borrowing a dime." Clinton
continued with another issue that he raised first. "And you know
grandparents who worry about retirement deserve a president who will
protect and then expand Social Security for those who need it most-not
cut or privatize it."
Her to-do list continued: affordable child care; paid family leave;
equal pay for equal work for women; good jobs with rising incomes-in
construction, manufacturing, small business and renewable energy;
standing up for workers and the middle class-"not China, not Wall
Street and not overpaid corporate executives." She said that she knows
how to make these promises become realities, and then slammed Trump,
especially his anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim stances, and his embrace
of torture and threatening adversaries.
"That doesn't make him strong, it makes him wrong," she said.
"We have to take on all forms of inequality and discrimination,"
Clinton said. "Together, we have to defend all of our rights-civil
rights and voting rights; worker's rights and women's rights; LGBT
rights and rights for people with disabilities. And that starts with
standing with President Obama when he nominates a justice to the
Supreme Court."
Whether or not Sanders' supporters will buy Clinton's words and see
how much he has sharpened her embrace and articulation of a
progressive agenda remains to be seen. There is no doubt that the
short-term messaging from the Sanders' campaign will be that they will
keep plowing ahead and fight for delegates in the remaining states. As
of Tuesday, half the states have voted. The math has Clinton with 300
more [3] pledged delegates than Sanders. That is not counting
super-delegates, the elected officers and party officials, where she
has 427 to his 26 [3]. Sanders reportedly spent
$12 million in ads for Tuesday's contests, compared to Clinton's $7
million.
Many of Sanders' supporters have not been involved in political
campaigns before, and will have a hard time immediately processing
But there are some big unanswered questions about what is next fortogether.
them in 2016-and what Clinton will also do to bring these two
campaigns
Sanders has taken positions that appeal to the disaffected voters whoCitizen's Guide to Voting"
have been drawn in by Trump and Cruz. One can only hope that the
Democratic Party knows it will need the millions of young economic
progressives to turn out in November. And they may not unless they
have a candidate they can believe in.
Steven Rosenfeld covers national political issues for AlterNet,
including America's retirement crisis, democracy and voting rights,
and campaigns and elections. He is the author of "Count My Vote: A
(AlterNet Books, 2008).Trump.
Share on Facebook Share
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[5]
________________________________________
Source URL:
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/trump-and-clintons-big-night-pos
es-har d-questions-sanders-campaign-and-his-youthful
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/steven-rosenfeld
[2] http://alternet.org
[3]
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/primary-calendar-
and-re
sults.html?action=click&contentCollection=Election%202016&regi
on=Foo
ter&module=WhatsNext&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext
&m oduleDetail=undefined&pgtype=Multimedia
[4] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters [5] http://www.alternet.org/ [6]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
Published on Alternet (http://www.alternet.org) Home > Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters
Trump and Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders
Campaign and His Youthful Supporters By Steven Rosenfeld [1] /
AlterNet [2] March 15, 2016 Bernie Sanders' historic and
expectation-surpassing bid for the Democratic presidential nomination
ran into hard reality in several pivotal primary contests Tuesday,
where he could not break Hillary Clinton's hold on voters in several
critical battleground states needed to win in the fall-notably Ohio
and Florida.
While Sanders supporters will point to his narrow victory in Missouri,
and overwhelming support among independents who voted in the
Democratic primary, Clinton's victories in those fall battleground
states-as well as South Carolina and Illinois-means that it is
virtually impossible for Sanders to win the delegates needed [3] for
the party's nomination. That fact undoubtedly will take days to seep
into his remarkable grassroots campaign, where it remains to be seen
how Sanders will continue his quest or align himself with Clinton-who
he's criticized for some stances but praised as a person of integrity.
The backdrop for that as-yet unknown calculation is the deeply
disconcerting continuing rise of Donald Trump toward the Republican
nomination, who has continued to amass a delegate lead-winning in
Florida, Illinois, South Carolina and Missouri. Although Ohio Gov.
John Kasich beat Trump in his home state, his first victory on 2016,
his chances-based on the GOP's delegate nomination math-are an even
longer shot than Sanders catching up with Clinton and wresting the
nomination. Under the current Republican National Committee rules, a
candidate needs to have won at least eight states to have their name
placed in nomination for the presidency. That renders Kasich's pledge
to supporters that he will win this fall as little more than campaign
magical thinking.
"Only one campaign has beaten Donald Trump over and over and over again,"
said Sen. Ted Cruz, also striking a defiant tone despite losing in
every state Tuesday, including by several thousand votes in Missouri
to
Cruz recited his pledge to recast the federal government and judiciaryTuesday's results.
in the most ideological right-wing mold possible, go after enemies
abroad, and said he was the only alternative to Trump. "Starting
tomorrow morning, there is a clear choice," Cruz said, posturing
before supporters in Texas.
Trump's victory in Florida prompted Marco Rubio to suspend his
campaign, telling his backers that it was not in "God's plans" for him
to win "in
2016
or maybe ever." He also implored Republicans to reject the hateful
politics pedaled by Trump, saying, "I ask the American people, 'Do not
give into the fear. Do not give into the frustration.'"
Tuesday's top two storylines-Trump's rise and Clinton all-but ending
Sanders' chances of winning sufficient delegates to be the
nominee-came together in her remarks, where she underscored that she
had won fair and square but tried to reach out to Sanders' team. "Our
campaign has won more votes than any other campaign-Democrat or
Republican," began Clinton, in remarks from Palm Beach, "and I want to
congratulate Sen. Sanders for the vigorous campaign he has waged."
Clinton said she needed the support of Democrats across the country,
and then focused on Trump but cited many issues raised by Sanders.
"Tonight, it is clearer than ever that this may be one of the most
consequential campaigns of our lifetimes," she said. "The next
president will walk into the oval office next year in January, and sit
down at that desk, and start making decisions that will affect the
lives and the livelihoods of everyone in this country and indeed,
everyone on this planet."
Clinton said the next president has three major challenges: making
positive differences in people's lives, keeping America safe and
bringing the country together. The first example she gave was a direct
nod to Sanders and his popularity with voters under age 35. "Young
people across America struggling under the weight of student debt find
it difficult to imagine the futures they want," she said, "and they
deserve a president who will relieve them of that burden and help
future generations go to college without borrowing a dime." Clinton
continued with another issue that he raised first. "And you know
grandparents who worry about retirement deserve a president who will
protect and then expand Social Security for those who need it most-not
cut or privatize it."
Her to-do list continued: affordable child care; paid family leave;
equal pay for equal work for women; good jobs with rising incomes-in
construction, manufacturing, small business and renewable energy;
standing up for workers and the middle class-"not China, not Wall
Street and not overpaid corporate executives." She said that she knows
how to make these promises become realities, and then slammed Trump,
especially his anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim stances, and his embrace
of torture and threatening adversaries.
"That doesn't make him strong, it makes him wrong," she said.
"We have to take on all forms of inequality and discrimination,"
Clinton said. "Together, we have to defend all of our rights-civil
rights and voting rights; worker's rights and women's rights; LGBT
rights and rights for people with disabilities. And that starts with
standing with President Obama when he nominates a justice to the
Supreme Court."
Whether or not Sanders' supporters will buy Clinton's words and see
how much he has sharpened her embrace and articulation of a
progressive agenda remains to be seen. There is no doubt that the
short-term messaging from the Sanders' campaign will be that they will
keep plowing ahead and fight for delegates in the remaining states. As
of Tuesday, half the states have voted. The math has Clinton with 300
more [3] pledged delegates than Sanders. That is not counting
super-delegates, the elected officers and party officials, where she
has 427 to his 26 [3]. Sanders reportedly spent
$12 million in ads for Tuesday's contests, compared to Clinton's $7
million.
Many of Sanders' supporters have not been involved in political
campaigns before, and will have a hard time immediately processing
But there are some big unanswered questions about what is next fortogether.
them in 2016-and what Clinton will also do to bring these two
campaigns
Sanders has taken positions that appeal to the disaffected voters whoCitizen's Guide to Voting"
have been drawn in by Trump and Cruz. One can only hope that the
Democratic Party knows it will need the millions of young economic
progressives to turn out in November. And they may not unless they
have a candidate they can believe in.
Steven Rosenfeld covers national political issues for AlterNet,
including America's retirement crisis, democracy and voting rights,
and campaigns and elections. He is the author of "Count My Vote: A
(AlterNet Books, 2008).
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Error! Hyperlink reference not valid.
Report typos and corrections to 'corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx'. [4] Error!
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Source URL:
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es-har d-questions-sanders-campaign-and-his-youthful
Links:
[1] http://www.alternet.org/authors/steven-rosenfeld
[2] http://alternet.org
[3]
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/primary-calendar-
and-re
sults.html?action=click&contentCollection=Election%202016&regi
on=Foo
ter&module=WhatsNext&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext
&m oduleDetail=undefined&pgtype=Multimedia
[4] mailto:corrections@xxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=Typo on Trump and
Clinton's Big Night Poses Hard Questions For Sanders Campaign and His
Youthful Supporters [5] http://www.alternet.org/ [6]
http://www.alternet.org/%2Bnew_src%2B
