It is possible for individual adherents to religion to do scientific
work. I might also mention that Muslims saved a lot of scholarship,
historical and scientific, during the European dark ages when Christians
were bent on destroying knowledge. A lot of scientific work is
algorithmic in that there are set procedures that are followed precisely
and if a religious person does follow them it will still work. However,
religion itself, notwithstanding what individual religious people do, is
anti-scientific. Science is the study of reality. It requires observing
reality and the manipulation of reality to see what happens. If a belief
is held it is only tentative. That is, one might hold a belief that is
scientific in that all the evidence that is known supports it. But then
new evidence might come in that shows the belief to be false and then it
is necessary to give it up. Religion rejects this. If a belief is shown
to be false religion requires that it be believed anyway. I am sure that
even meticulous scientists who are also religious are held back by some
degree by their religious outlook. Religion makes certain pronouncements
about how the world works and when it is shown that it does not work
that way it insists that it does anyway. That is the reason for the
denial of evolution. It is why Galileo was persecuted for showing that
the sun does not revolve around the Earth, but that the Earth revolves
around the sun. It is why Bruno was burned alive for making other
discoveries about celestial bodies. Religion spoils pretty much
everything it touches. Most scientists are atheists. Some cling to
religion despite what their education shows them. I expect that those
religious scientists would be doing much better work if they did not
cling to superstitious thought. Remember that there is a great dichotomy
in philosophy between materialism and idealism. The materialist view is
that if something is not known then it is our job to go out and find
out. The idealist view is that if something is not known then it is
necessary to just proclaim an answer and insist that it is true no
matter what.
On 10/10/2017 10:21 PM, Bob wrote:
My friends Mary, Roger, Carl and the rest of the good people on this list. I am so sorry, I haven't got the chance to interact with your threads. I may just ask you to change the subject field to what is relevant to your subject. I want to comment but, I do not want to mistakenly utter fiery remarks. Well, religion has been constantly a subject of perfervid conflict in the western world. Subsequent to medieval ages, modernised western statehood disapproved religious introspection. They claim it majorly opposes modern scientific development. Is this absolutely accurate and necessarily applicable for all religions? If so, where has the tremendous contribution of the Muslim scholar, jurist and philosopher Avicenna came from? To say that religion in general spurns modern scientific development is inevitably incorrect. In the peak of orthodox Islamic revivalism, Muslims had profound contribution to various fields of scholarship. They contributed to Medicine, Mathematics, Physiology, Philosophy and Theology. I keenly urge subscribers to this list to deeply study Muslim scholarly contribution in modern day spain, formerly known as the state of Andalusia. Religion never contradicted with relentless scientific development according to historical accounts, particularly of the ninth century. That was, when Europe lived in complete darkness and Islamic scientific contribution flowed munificently and quenched Europe's thirst to knowledge. However, today, the situation has been perfectly reversed. Contributors became consumers and vice versa. The primal reason of our scandalously civil retardation is our perpetual state of indolence. Muslims simply do not want to work. I lived for a while in modern day Saudi. They're too rich but many of them, are just too lazy to get off the bed until it's nearly midday. Here in Egypt, despite our relentlessly exacerbating economic downfall and our enormous poverty, Muslims constantly seek any valid or invalid excuse to arrive late at work, leave early or just find any excuse to skive. Is this the expected disposition of someone who wants to shine and thrive? Half of the year here is taken off work. As the Muslim righteous and immensely just Caliph, Omar Ibn-Elkhattab said once to someone who was lazy to work,"Sky doesn't rain gold nor silver, go and find some work to do". This is the only solution for us to rise again. This is the only solution for us to retain our eminent position, this is our only solution to retain our lost dignity and be respected once again.
Bob Evans
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for
DMARC) <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; MARY CONVY
<mailto:CCRUSER@xxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:40 AM
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump
for evangelists
The Catholic church has always proclaimed itself to be for social
justice while at the same time sending out missionaries to act as
agents for imperialism, while at the same time participating in
the destruction of entire cultures and the suppression of even
their languages. The Catholic Church has always claimed to be on
the side of social justice while at the same time burning
heretics, suppressing scientific advance, suppressing the struggle
for the rights of women and more. The Catholic Church is very
similar to other religions in this way. I consider religion to be
a great evil. Throughout all of history every time humanity has
advanced, whether it be socially, economically, scientifically or
otherwise, religion has always without exception, been there to
deny, denounce and obstruct. It is hard to imagine just how far
humanity might have gotten without religion standing in the way.
On 10/10/2017 5:36 PM, MARY CONVY wrote:
Gee Marion, you sound almost disappointed that the Catholic
Church is proclaiming social consciousness. And they always
have. This guy in a bit more of a straight line. But I can't
think of any other world wide institution that does as good a job.
Now wait. Yes I know, there are a lot of screw ups. But there
are among any group, humanists included. And to say you remember
Catholics affected by church teachings?! Again, in any group some
individuals can be treated, or interpret teachings in a harmful
way. That's life. Filled with flawed humans.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:13 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
The decision related to medical insurance plans was that
contraception is no longer being required to cover contraception.
Right now, this administration is making more moves in that
direction. If you can go to Walmart and fill a prescription for a
contraceptive pill for $4, you first need to acquire that
prescription from a physician. If you don’t have the funds to pay
for the medical appointment and your insurance won’t cover it,
you won’t be able to take a prescription anywhere to be filled.
If you’re on Medicaid and Medicaid doesn’t cover contraception,
then you may not be able to afford contraception. Because I am 80
years old, I clearly remember a time when it was difficult for
people to acquire effective contraception. I remember when it was
almost impossible for an unmarried woman to do so. I also clearly
remember what life was like for us before abortion was legalized.
For me, the issue isn’t just an abstract matter. I can tell
stories about real people whose lives were profoundly affected by
the laws back then.
There’s a difference between the Catholic Church and the
Religious Right and at the moment, because of the particular Pope
who heads the Church, the Catholic Church has made much more
liberal pronouncements than is usually the case. And, of course,
the Church, like every other institution, includes people with a
variety of views on the subject of birth control and abortion.
But I also remember how some very close friends of mine who were
Catholic, were affected by the Church’s teachings.
Miriam
*From:* blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY
CONVY
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:42 AM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Anyone can walk into Walmart and purchase Plan B birth control
for $4 without a prescription. No script needed for
spermicides. Or condoms. Get a script and you can purchase the
pill for $4.00 at Walmart. I don't see birth control is restricted.
The Right to Life group is specialized but the Catholic Church is
against capital punishment, war, capitalism, and consumerism.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of
Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 7:20 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
I overstated, but yes, I knew that not everyone in the
organization protests in front of clinics and not everyone who
opposes abortion, is a member of the organization. However, there
are certainly political attempts to restrict birth control right
now, and there have been, for the past several years. The Supreme
Court supported one of them in a recent decision. I also find it
ironic that people who are concerned about the lives of unborn
babies, take no position on capital punishment. And I would also
like to add that sometimes, what is written down as official
policy, may not be actual policy.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY
CONVY
*Sent:* Monday, October 09, 2017 6:53 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
Well Miriam, I should have added that any one or any group (since
we are social creatures) can misuse any social institution. But
I hold to account the flawed people and not the core of the
world's religions, as I posted ten common core beliefs in all
religions.
Your bring up Right to Life people and say the quote normally
unquote protest clinics and confront women. Please read the
following:
National Right to Life Committee
The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is a nonprofit
organization that seeks to end legalized Abortion
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion> in the
United States. Founded in 1973, following the U.S. Supreme
Court's decision in Roe v. Wade
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Roe+v.+Wade>, 410
U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147 (1973), which held that
women had a constitutional right to abortion, the NRLC has become
the leading antiabortion organization in the United States. It
has more than 7 million members, with 3,000 local chapters and 50
state affiliates. It is headquartered in Washington, D.C., and
has an annual budget of more than $9 million. The /National Right
to Life News/, a biweekly newsletter, has a circulation of 135,000.
From its inception, the NRLC has sought the passage of a
constitutional amendment banning abortion. Though this effort has
not been successful, the NRLC has played an important role in
state and federal legislation regulating and restricting
abortion, and has been instrumental in restricting government
funding of abortions to poor women. The NRLC has a Political
Action Committee
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Political+Action+Committee>
that endorses and campaigns for candidates who support its
agenda, which includes opposition to some forms of Birth Control
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Birth+Control> as
well as physician-assisted suicide. The committee states that it
does not take a position on issues such as contraception, sex
education, Capital Punishment
<http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+punishment>,
and national defense.
So Miriam, you will note there are seven million members of the
national life organization. I would contend they all do not
normally, as you said, protest at clinics. I would guess a very
small percentage does and then the far radical groups are even a
smaller number. This is not to take a position on the
organization itself but to illustrate our reality is based on
many of our biases. Note they also object to SOME forms of birth
control, not all. Would you have guessed that? It takes no
position on sex education, capital punishment or national
defense. Bet you wouldn't have thought that either.
Our society is way too anxious to have an us v. them, all or
nothing, very bellicose dialog. That will be our down fall.
Both political parties have taken their corners to use a boxing
analogy and has left the gaping middle ring for a Trump to raise
his arm in victory. I read recently an article by a leader of
the DNC who proclaimed, if you don't believe in abortion we don't
want you in our party. And over the years, indeed, much to their
detriment, the Democrats have lost the conservative on some issue
but generally very socially liberal Catholic who helped JFK win
office. We have to start embracing diversity within our own
groups, true diversity in thought and ideas, not only race or
religion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of
Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 4:01 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
Mary,
Yes, that’s true. But it isn’t just one individual. The novel
follows one individual, but it also talks about a real group
called, “The Army of God”, and members of this group have, in
fact, murdered abortion providers. They do so in the belief that
they are saving the lives of unborn babies. The people who belong
to “Right To Life” groups are usually Evangelical Christians and
very conservative Catholics and normally, they protest in front
of clinics where abortions are performed and they attempt to
approach individual women who are about to enter the clinics and
try to convince them not to do so. But in these groups, there are
some even more extreme people who believe that killing doctors
who provide abortions, is justified. Every religion has extreme
sects and in each of these are even more extreme fringe groups,
and additionally, there are individuals in every religion who are
mentally ill and whose illness causes them to misconstrue
religious teaching. The character in the book I’m reading, does
have emotional problems which caused him to be attracted to the
people who advocated killing abortion providers. But in reality,
when one tries to speak objectively about these issues, it
becomes very difficult to separate out religious faith from
pathology in some cases. Let me hasten to tell you something
about me because you are new to this list and don’t know me. I’m
a retired social worker and when I attended social work school a
very long time ago, I did have to learn a good deal about
psychology and human behavior. I suppose that the other thing you
should know about me is that my background is Jewish, but I’m a
secular person and the most accurate description of my personal
beliefs of philosophy would be “secular humanism”. But that’s my
own personal philosophy and I recognize that people experience
reality in a variety of ways.
Miriam
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *MARY
CONVY
*Sent:* Monday, October 09, 2017 3:31 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
Miriam,
Any social institution can be mis-used by any one of the millions
of flawed humans that follow it. In this case the murderer took
the religious principal of holding sacred life and polluted it
with his own mental instability.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of
Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
*To:* blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald
Trump for evangelists
I'm reading a really long, ponderous novel by Joyce Carol Oates
called A Book Of Martyrs. Well, Joyce Carol Oates tends to write
in a ponderous manner. But if one can manage to get through it,
the book has a lot to say. It's about the assassination of a
doctor who works in women's centers in the mid west and who,
among other medical services, provides abortions. The book
describes the man who murdered the doctor and the man's family,
including their religious beliefs, psychological motivations, and
socio-economic status. It also describes the doctor, his family,
and the details of their lives and beliefs. This is really a
picture of the great divide in our society, in terms of
educational status and cultural identity and although it has
something to do with social class, it is not related to the way
in which people on this list and in typical political discourse,
refer to class. There really seems to be no meeting ground
because the basic assumptions of these two groups are so
different. But in relation to our discussion about folks feeling
so sure that they are right while people with the opposite view
are wrong, in the story, the man who is convinced that killing an
abortion provider is what Jesus wants him to do, has no concern
as to what the consequences of his act will be for his wife and
children. On the other side of the coin, the doctor who performs
abortions, is aware that his life is in danger. Other abortion
providers have been killed. His wife is begging him to stop doing
this work because she's afraid that he, too, will be killed and
he has already provided this service for many years. But he feels
that his skills are badly needed and that the time has not yet
arrived for him to stop. In other words, he too, is being called
to do what he does and he does not consider the consequences to
his wife and children. In the end, both men die and their
families are permanently damaged.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carl
Jarvis
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 11:11 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Undisclosed-Recipient:,"@freelists.org
<mailto:%22Undisclosed-Recipient:,%22@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Jesus, Christmas and Donald Trump
for evangelists
There is nothing so futile as an exercise in futility.
And once again we prove it. There are two hard and true facts in
any discussion of this nature. 1. I am right!
2. Everyone else is wrong!
Each of us, regardless of our basic Beliefs, become a Missionary,
setting out to demonstrate the "rightnous" of our Belief, and the
"wrongness" of everyone else. Sometimes we are gentle in our
attack on everyone else, and sometimes we become rather nasty.
But always it is from the position of each of us being Right, and
everyone else, Wrong!
And when we are not defending our Belief, by attacking all
others, we are wondering why people can't seem to get along.
Now I'm not a Believer any longer. My reason for leaving the
Faith was due to this very demonstration. I awoke from a deep
dream one morning and asked myself, "Self! What sort of Almighty
Creator would allow Humans to gather in little self righteous
groups and spend thousands of years fighting each other?
But that's me, and I came to my present place in thought in my
own way and in my own time. To my simple mind, that is the only
way each of us will resolve this discussion. And then it will
not matter what others believe, just so long as they do not
believe that they are obligated to kill me if I do not believe as
they do.
Carl Jarvis
On 10/8/17, Bob <ebob824@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ebob824@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> Hello. This is Bob Evans. I'm the author of the editorial
attached below.
> Please, read, fathom and if you wish, interact.
>
> Bob Evans
>
> ______
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
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