Carl,
It isn't just privileged white Christians who have hated Jews. There's a very
long history of antisemitism which includes peasants in eastern Europe and
Russia, along with working class Irish and Italian kids in New York City, as
well as the head of the US Immigration Service in the late 30's and early 40's
who wouldn't allow Jews to emigrate here. There were the medical schools with
quotas, allowing only a limited number of Jewish applicants, the fraternities
and sororities which did not allow Jewish students to join. There were the
country clubs and the small hotels and guest houses in New England where we
never attempted to stop on our trips back from Canada. There were the public
schools with their Christian hymns and opening prayers at the beginning of
Assembly each week. There was the Inquisition, the mandatory conversion of Jews
to Christianity in Spain. There's America which theoretically has separation
between church and state where Christmas and Easter are national holidays and
there is a Christmas tree lighting ceremony at the White House each year. In
Westbury, the Village had a display at the Village Hall of the scene at
Christ's birth and when one of our prominent residents who was Jewish, finally
wrote a letter of objection to our newspaper, all hell broke loose. How dare
she question such a sacred tradition! It was Russian peasants who participated
in pogroms, and it was the white working class and middle class who marched in
Charlottesville chanting, "Jews will not replace us". You can say that all of
this was stirred up by wealthy people. But I say that it's been part of
European and American culture for centuries.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:57 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: AddendumF Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Actually Miriam, what I believe is that there is an undercurrent of hatred and
mistrust toward Jews, by the Privileged White Racists, and of their sycophants,
At times the window dressing is different, and often it is deliberately
misleading. but it seems to me that so many times, those in power use
suspicion and hatred as tools in managing the people beneath them. Jews have
been a favorite target since Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of
Eden, setting the tone for the treatment of Jews down through the centuries.
Some years ago a Seattle attorney whose last name was Goldmark, was murdered
along with his wife and two children. The murderer was apprehended and
confessed that he hated Jews. The Goldmarks were not Jews.
I have tons to say on the subject, mostly conjecture on my part, but I am about
to have an early supper and listen to a murder novel to relax my mind(grin).
Carl Jarvis
On 7/7/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa,
I'm going to try to answer you, one point at a time.
-----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 3:03 PM
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: AddendumF Re: my random thoughts versus
yours
Miriam, your approach seems to be honest and rather intriguing. I
actually am interested to learn more about your experience. How has this
started?
What made you believe in the statehood of Israel and what was the
shifting point that led you to dispose of it?
I was about ten years old when Israel was created. Everyone in my
family believed that having a Jewish State was a wonderful thing
because Jews had been hated and discriminated against for so long and
because 6 million Jews were exterminated in Nazi death camps. Everyone
believed that we needed a place to which to escape, the next time
another country began doing what the Nazis had done. The people in my
family believed the Zionist propaganda which stated that the
Palestinians were all uneducated Nomads. They never called them
Palestinians. They called them, "Arabs". They thought that they could
easily live in the surrounding Arab countries. I was just a child. I absorbed
all of that. But I grew up. I went to college and graduate school.
I read a lot. I am an independent thinker. And I have always been
concerned about groups of people who are mistreated like African
Americans and Native Americans, and poor people.
I tend to question everything. I never practiced the Jewish religion,
but I absorbed the values and tradition. Here in the US, Jewish people
have always been involved in social justice movements. They were
active in the labor movement and in the civil rights movement. They
ran excellent social welfare agencies. I've always identified with that part
of Jewish tradition.
In my work, I met people who had lived in Israel and who had visited
Israel, and they described it to me. That was in the 1980's. I
realized that Israel was very different from the way it had been
described by the media and in the books I read. And then there was
that massacre of Palestinians in a refugee camp in 1982 in which the
Israelis were involved. One of my clients had lived in Israel for a
time and she also wrote a novel about it. I realized, from talking to
her and reading her book, that the Palestinians who were Israeli citizens,
did not have equal rights with Jewish Israelis.
In the 1990's, I thought that the two state solution might be the
right idea. But in the mid 1990's, I got a computer and that allowed
me to read a lot more. After the US attacked Iraq in 2003, I began to
see that the people in the US government who supported Israel, were
supporting much of what the US was doing in the Middle East and all of
it was wrong. And then I read a book by an Israeli historian called
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. I watched what Israel did to Gaza
at the end of 2008. I joined an Israeli email list which was opposed
to Israeli policy. My whole view of Israel and Palestine had changed by 2008.
It isn’t something typical for someone from Jewish background who
lives in America to dissent with Israel and its brutal practices in Palestine.
Among American Jews, there are a variety of opinions. Probably, a
majority of older people still support Israel, but not all of them do.
After all, I'm going to be 82 years old, and I do not. Among the
younger Jews, a large number have begun to question Jewish support of
Israel. There are several very active anti Zionist Jewish groups in
the US and Canada. The young people are reacting to the crimes that Israel is
committing.
Do you think that the Nazi persecution in Europe was the key factor by
which Jews have been urged to seek a new land?
Yes, that was the impetus. But in the late nineteenth century, Jews
also emigrated to Palestine because of European antisemitism. Most of
them were secular Jews, but they chose Palestine because of the fact
that Jews came from there originally.
And, to the settlers in the occupied West Bank, what have made them
able to remain in perhaps the most litigious region on earth
I can't explain these people. They are very religious and very assertive.
Many of them came from Russia where they had very little and felt
unwanted, so now that they emigrated to Israel, they want to assert
Israeli rights over the land. It makes them feel important. The more
educated Jews of European background, tend to live in Israel , not the
West Bank, and they have favored status. They are the elite, and
therefore, they don't have a need to bully people openly.
? Carl, your experience back then has given me an idea how Jews were
maltreated. Is that why their star is so high now in America? Do
European Christians feel somewhat guilty toward Jews that they react
tolerantly toward their enormous atrocities perpetrated in Palestine?
I am attempting to fathom and somehow connect the puzzle. How in the
past, Christians used to despise and persecute Jews and as of right
now, they’re their closest ally. How has this unfolded? They chased
them in Europe and then, helped them establish a homeland in
Palestine. What has changed after the second world war? I hope I could
discern.
I'm not Carl, but I'll answer. It is Evangelical Christians who are
strongly supporting Israel. But not because they have suddenly valued
Jews. Israel fits into their fantasy of "The End Times". They need
Issrael to exist in order for the chosen to rise to heaven. The Jews
will be discarded, along with everyone else who isn't "saved".
Following up your last point, how could the two states solution be applied?
And about those were born there, they knew they reside in an occupied
territory, even if they attempt to justify and even legitimise their
colonisation.
On 7/7/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa,
There's one point that you made, with which I don't agree. You said
that all of the Jews living in Israel should return to the countries
from which they came. But the fact is that most of the people who
live in Israel, were born there or have made it their permanent home.
They don't have homes to which to return. I think that we have to
accept that Israel exists. But what should happen, is that it should
be changed. It should no longer be a Jewish State. It should be
Israel/Palestine, a democratic country with no walls, no barriers,
and where everyone, Jew, Muslim, Christian, member of any other
religion, and non believer, should be equal with an equal vote. The
government should not be aligned with any particular religion. All of
the Palestinians, living in the diaspora, should be allowed to
return, if they wish to.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 1:15 PM
To: 'blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Mustafa,
I agree with what you say about Israel. And there are many Jews who
also agree with you. And no, I have no relatives living in Israel.
But I want to explain to you that it took me many years to understand
the truth about Israel. And learning the truth and changing what I
believed and what I had thought to be true, was a very painful
process. Jews were traumatized by what happened to Jews in Europe
during the second world war. And they were lied to by the media and
by their governments, about Israel. Additionally, it wasn't until
recently that we have all learned the truth about the Zionist project
to take over all of Palestine. That project existed since the early
1930's, but it was kept a secret. So what I'm saying is that Jewish
people were manipulated, as were Americans, who were taught that
Israel is a democratic country and an ally whom they should support.
That lie has torn the Middle East apart and it has turned America
into an autocracy with a democratic façade. But then, most
governments lie to their people, manipulate them, and use them in
order to gain power in relation to other countries.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:55 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Well Miriam, I think many Jews around the world have been trapped
into the deceitful notion, that Israel is presumptively the ideal
solution for mass Jewish persecution. I watched various television
series, featuring tales about Egyptian Jews whom had been beguiled to
immigrate to Israel. Laila Mourad is a popularly distinct Egyptian
vocalist and actress from Jewish background. Many including myself
still love her songs and movies. I want to ask you, do you have
relatives who live in Israel? If so, what’s their experience? Have
you ever considered settling their yourself? In my opinion, the
problem of Israel, beyond territory occupation, is the fact that each
and everyone therein is forcefully a soldier in the army.
Furthermore, they constantly build walls, establish settlements while
backed by the US. They do so because they knew they hooked this land.
Thence, they are somewhat coerced to pestilently confront their victim
everyday.
Furthermore, I noticed the construction of the separation wall or
barrier into the West Bank has substantially been accelerated. So, I
believe that the major crisis has been evidently misidentified. The
two states solution isn’t practical at all. Jews ought to redress the
situation and consistently retrovert to where they were originally
from. Otherwise, the conflict shall remain, probably will heighten
and it won’t ever be solved. The idea of Israel has instigated Arabs
to react vindictively. Jews are despised for viciously playing the
victim role while they relentlessly sabotage and subjugate innocently
civilian Palestinians periodically. Peace talks aren’t expected to be
of any significance if they’re conducted unilaterally. In addition,
Antisemitism verboten has to be utterly revoked. People must be able
to freely criticise what Israel does without being threatened of
losing their job or getting their reputation dreadfully ruined.
That’s why, the New York Times has been scandalously coerced to
submissively apologise for portraying a political satire.
Nonetheless, when a Danish magazine drew an offensive caricature of
prophet Muhammad, it hasn’t been compeled to apologise nor even
demanded to. The subject is essentially complected. For sure, Jews
are two holy to be criticised in the west, that’s a fact. At the same
time, we aren’t suppose to biasedly generalise. I’d hope that Jews
recognise what the problem really is and attempt to solve it themselves.
Even those who may not necessarily agree with what Israel does,
aren’t enacting their proposition properly or proceeding it gradually
into the legal arena.
For the United States, Israel is quite sanctimonious. How many time
Israeli war criminals who intently perpetrated white phosphorus
against innocent civilians of Gaza have been brought to justice? How
many time the US sternly vetoed a resolution issued by the UN that is
destined to push peace process forward for the sake of Israel? How
many time Israel’s secret nuclear arsenal has been probed nor even
oppugned? The west and the States in particular must develop the
motivating factor by which they could devotedly interrogate about
what Israel does on that regard. If the States truly cares about
establishing genuine peace in the Middle East, it must quit arming
Israel and start negotiating the proposed departure deal. What a
Jewish of Russian background has got to do with Palestine? I think
what I say makes sense, quite so far. Your opinion Miriam?
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa,
Most people of my generation and previous generation who come from
Jewish backgrounds, experienced antisemitism at some time in their
lives. That is the reason that so many of us supported the creation
of the State of Israel.
Because of centuries of antisemitism and then the Nazis' persecution
of the Jews, they thought that a country, dedicated to Jewish
people, would protect them in the future. Not all Jews felt that
way, but after the second world war, many did. And we were kept
ignorant of all the details of what was done in order to create
Israel. American Jews, at least most of them, believed that by now,
at least in the US, anti-semitism had disappeared. But after the
election of Donald Trump to the Presidency, anti-semitism, which has
been pretty much hidden for decades here, is now apparent again.
But I don't think about it as religious discrimination. What I think
is that when people, any people, have been taught that their race or
their religion or their country is superior to everyone else's,
there's always a potential for them to turn on other people who are
different from them. If they are feeling frightened about their own
security, it's very easy for people in leadership positions to turn
them against other people.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 1:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Miriam, it's so sad that you were disallowed from entering some
places for your religious background.
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Weather? When I was young, in New York, June was sunny and warm.
July was sunny and hot. August was muggy, sometimes rainy,
sometimes sunny, until the end when we would have one or two cooler
sunny days to remind us that autumn was on the way. It has been hot
and muggy for days now. We've had some rain and some thunder. Back
in the old days, thunder storms were reserved for the end of July and
August.
Today is cloudy, hot and muggy, with rainstorms forecast for the
afternoon.
Car trips. We were working class city people with no real need for
a car because New York City had good, inexpensive, public
transportation. But when I was nine or ten years old, my father
bought a car. The first one was a Chevrolet. The color was crystal
green and my very fashion conscious mother just loved that color.
Each summer, we would travel by car to Montreal to visit my
father's family. It would be a slow, rambling trip up through New
York State with stops at various tourist attractions like Niagara
Falls, and back home through New England. There was a wonderful
restaurant called, The Springs, somewhere in Massachusetts, that we
stumbled on one year and where we made sure to return each year.
Two of my father's brothers had also emigrated from Canada to the
US and one year, one of them, with his wife and son, traveled back
to Montreal with us. No rambling that time, just one or two very
long days of riding in a car. But that was the year, I think, that
after we visited the family in Montreal, we traveled to the
Mountains in Quebec Province for vacation. But we couldn't find a
hotel because no one would allow Jews. One place said we could stay
in a cabin, but we weren't allowed in the dining room.
So we kept riding. And then we saw a beautiful hotel on an island
in the middle of a lake. We were sure that since it looked so
fancy, we would surely be excluded from there too, but we thought
we'd try anyway.
Luckily, the owner was Jewish. We were allowed in and absolutely
loved our stay there.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:49 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
Hi Miriam...and anyone else still recovering from the Fourth of July.
Rereading is probably more related to temperate, as you say,
rather than age related. But I wonder how it is that you continue
to read...or at least skim my posts, since redundancy is my middle name.
I always figured that I just had a limited vocabulary. Not like
our friend in Egypt!
It's Saturday, July Sixth, and it's raining. All night it rained.
20%, the weather person said. Well Mister/Missus Weather person,
we got 20% five times! It reminds me of the many times we put the
four man surplus Army tent in the trunk of our old Hudson, called
the Family Bus, and tossed in some food and sleeping bedding, and
headed out on a sort of sunny July Fourth, looking to commune with Nature.
Sometimes we drove down the Coast into Oregon and sometimes we
headed up toward Bellingham. I liked it best when we turned the
Family Bus toward the East, and wound up at grandma and grandpa's
farm in the Spokane Valley. No sleeping on lumpy rocks at
grandma's. Sure, the beds were old and lumpy and sagged to the
middle, but it was dry and hot and beat the rain that was falling
on the Coast.
It seemed to always rain over Fourth of July weekend. Come to
think of it, it always seemed to rain on Memorial Day weekend...and
Labor Day weekend, too. And it was always a fine, soaking rain.
Mother called it, "Oregon Mist". Then she would add, "It mist
Oregon and hit Washington".
Something I learned early on...well, a couple of things, was that
Four Man Army Surplus Tents are made to accommodate three
undersized soldiers. We had two fairly large adults and three
varying sizes of children. Crowded was a bad joke. It was
impossible to crawl out over sleeping bodies if you had to go out
in the middle of the night...and there was only one compelling
reason anyone in their right mind would crawl out of the safety of
that four man tent, into the wet, clammy, very dark night. And the
other important thing I learned about canvas tents and rain, Do Not
Touch the Canvas when it is raining. Mother and Dad told us this
warning every time we headed out...in the rain. You would think
that the first time we disobeyed them, we would never touch the
tent's canvas roof. As soon as a stray finger explored the tents
surface, a drop of water would form.
And there was no way to put it back. It would draw more water into
itself and then drop...splat!
And another drop would form...
This foolishness always happened, but always over my sisters or myself.
Never, ever did anyone touch the tent above our parents.
They slept warm and dry while us three kids wiggled and squirmed
while trying to avoid the drips.
One time we found a beautiful valley in Western Oregon, accessible
only by a couple of ruts that went straight down the edge of a high
rock wall and a steep drop off on the other side. We pitched...or
actually we struggled the tent into an upright position and then
began slapping our arms and necks.
We saw no mosquitoes, but little welts began rising up on our
exposed skin.
"No See ums'!" my dad announced.
"You can't see them because all there is to them are teeth with wings".
After we tired of slapping, we hauled down the tent and crawled
back up that rutty road with the windows all rolled up. That was
another joy in summer camping trips. Old 1938 Hudson's were roomy,
but air conditioning was available only by cranking down the
windows. One trip through Roseburg, Oregon it was 105 degrees,
with that hot sun beating down on an all metal car. That trip we
had five adults and Mimi, our small family dog of many breeds.
Poor Mimi, she hated long trips, but had to go because she had
bonded with Mother. She always threw up within the first hour.
Then she was fine for the rest of the outing, no matter how many
days we were gone.
That is when Mimi became "Our dog", meaning my sister's and mine.
We got to clean the pukey newspaper out of her box and toss the
stinking mess into a waste barrel when we stopped for gas...or had
to put water in our boiling radiator...or add air to our soft tires.
You would think that such memories would guarantee that I would
live deep in the heart of a large city. But something about
heading into the unknown moved my heart and Soul...and moved us
finally to our ten acre horse farm in the wilds of the Great
Olympic Peninsula...where I've never met a tree I didn't like.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl,
There are a lot of young people who read books over and over again.
It has nothing to do with age. I know because of what people write
on the DB Review list. And when I listen to these podcasts, I'm
hearing the same subjects discussed repeatedly, but sometimes with
new facts thrown into the mix. I just don't like hearing the same
words repeated. I guess it's temperament.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 9:46 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
Miriam,
It's one of those subtle signs that I'm getting long in the tooth.
I used to read or listen to information, or read a novel, and
never dream of wasting my time reading or listening to it again...ever!
But in recent years I find myself listening to the same articles
or the same speakers, and actually learning new information...again.
I'm sure that this relaxing of my mental process is not the only
indication of the aging process, but being blind, I never worry
about what would stare back at me from my mirror.
I do chuckle when Cathy and I return home after working with two
clients, and we can barely stagger into our recliners. When we
began back in 1995, we saw two clients in the morning and two
clients following lunch. And we worked five days a week in the
field, not just Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and we wrote our
reports in the late evening.
If I kept that sort of schedule today, I'd last about one
day...and no reports would ever be written.
By the way, I read A People's History of the United States, twice.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/5/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Again, another repeat. I've just learned from experience that on
holidays, Democracy Now repeats past performances. I may be
weird, but just like I don't reread books, I don't listen to
repeat programs.
Happily, I had plenty of podcasts to listen to yesterday and if
there aren't enough today, I have more than enough books. I've
just unsubscribed from my second New York Times podcast. The
first was The Daily, because I didn't like the way they framed
most of the news stories they presented. It felt like a well
planned propaganda presentation. Now, I've deleted The Argument.
The most left wing of the three presenters, is, from my point of
view, just slightly left of the center of the Democratic Party.
They're supposed to be providing a right of center, center left,
and leftist view of issues.
That's ridiculous.
There's a whole spectrum of viewpoints on the left that they're
omitting.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 9:50 AM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
From the mind of our nation's leading elder statesman, to your ears.
An address from this past April, and an interview by Amy Goodman.
Carl Jarvis
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Democracy Now! <digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:06:40 +0000
Subject: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on Fascism, Nuclear Weapons,
Climate Change, Julian Assange & More | Daily Digest 07/05/2019
To: carjar82@xxxxxxxxx
Ousted Honduran President Zelaya: U.S.-Backed Coup Destabilized
My Nation Forcing Migrants to Flee
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https://mailchi.mp/democracynow/20180813-729797?e=a8dd014a28
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