Miriam, your approach seems to be honest and rather intriguing. I
actually am interested to learn more about your experience. How has
this started? What made you believe in the statehood of Israel and
what was the shifting point that led you to dispose of it? It isn’t
something typical for someone from Jewish background who lives in
America to dissent with Israel and its brutal practices in Palestine.
Do you think that the Nazi persecution in Europe was the key factor by
which Jews have been urged to seek a new land? And, to the settlers in
the occupied West Bank, what have made them able to remain in perhaps
the most litigious region on earth? Carl, your experience back then
has given me an idea how Jews were maltreated. Is that why their star
is so high now in America? Do European Christians feel somewhat guilty
toward Jews that they react tolerantly toward their enormous
atrocities perpetrated in Palestine? I am attempting to fathom and
somehow connect the puzzle. How in the past, Christians used to
despise and persecute Jews and as of right now, they’re their closest
ally. How has this unfolded? They chased them in Europe and then,
helped them establish a homeland in Palestine. What has changed after
the second world war? I hope I could discern. Following up your last
point, how could the two states solution be applied? And about those
were born there, they knew they reside in an occupied territory, even
if they attempt to justify and even legitimise their colonisation.
On 7/7/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa,
There's one point that you made, with which I don't agree. You said that all
of the Jews living in Israel should return to the countries from which they
came. But the fact is that most of the people who live in Israel, were born
there or have made it their permanent home. They don't have homes to which
to return. I think that we have to accept that Israel exists. But what
should happen, is that it should be changed. It should no longer be a Jewish
State. It should be Israel/Palestine, a democratic country with no walls, no
barriers, and where everyone, Jew, Muslim, Christian, member of any other
religion, and non believer, should be equal with an equal vote. The
government should not be aligned with any particular religion. All of the
Palestinians, living in the diaspora, should be allowed to return, if they
wish to.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 1:15 PM
To: 'blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Mustafa,
I agree with what you say about Israel. And there are many Jews who also
agree with you. And no, I have no relatives living in Israel. But I want to
explain to you that it took me many years to understand the truth about
Israel. And learning the truth and changing what I believed and what I had
thought to be true, was a very painful process. Jews were traumatized by
what happened to Jews in Europe during the second world war. And they were
lied to by the media and by their governments, about Israel. Additionally,
it wasn't until recently that we have all learned the truth about the
Zionist project to take over all of Palestine. That project existed since
the early 1930's, but it was kept a secret. So what I'm saying is that
Jewish people were manipulated, as were Americans, who were taught that
Israel is a democratic country and an ally whom they should support. That
lie has torn the Middle East apart and it has turned America into an
autocracy with a democratic façade. But then, most governments lie to their
people, manipulate them, and use them in order to gain power in relation to
other countries.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2019 7:55 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Well Miriam, I think many Jews around the world have been trapped into the
deceitful notion, that Israel is presumptively the ideal solution for mass
Jewish persecution. I watched various television series, featuring tales
about Egyptian Jews whom had been beguiled to immigrate to Israel. Laila
Mourad is a popularly distinct Egyptian vocalist and actress from Jewish
background. Many including myself still love her songs and movies. I want to
ask you, do you have relatives who live in Israel? If so, what’s their
experience? Have you ever considered settling their yourself? In my opinion,
the problem of Israel, beyond territory occupation, is the fact that each
and everyone therein is forcefully a soldier in the army. Furthermore, they
constantly build walls, establish settlements while backed by the US. They
do so because they knew they hooked this land. Thence, they are somewhat
coerced to pestilently confront their victim everyday.
Furthermore, I noticed the construction of the separation wall or barrier
into the West Bank has substantially been accelerated. So, I believe that
the major crisis has been evidently misidentified. The two states solution
isn’t practical at all. Jews ought to redress the situation and consistently
retrovert to where they were originally from. Otherwise, the conflict shall
remain, probably will heighten and it won’t ever be solved. The idea of
Israel has instigated Arabs to react vindictively. Jews are despised for
viciously playing the victim role while they relentlessly sabotage and
subjugate innocently civilian Palestinians periodically. Peace talks aren’t
expected to be of any significance if they’re conducted unilaterally. In
addition, Antisemitism verboten has to be utterly revoked. People must be
able to freely criticise what Israel does without being threatened of losing
their job or getting their reputation dreadfully ruined. That’s why, the New
York Times has been scandalously coerced to submissively apologise for
portraying a political satire. Nonetheless, when a Danish magazine drew an
offensive caricature of prophet Muhammad, it hasn’t been compeled to
apologise nor even demanded to. The subject is essentially complected. For
sure, Jews are two holy to be criticised in the west, that’s a fact. At the
same time, we aren’t suppose to biasedly generalise. I’d hope that Jews
recognise what the problem really is and attempt to solve it themselves.
Even those who may not necessarily agree with what Israel does, aren’t
enacting their proposition properly or proceeding it gradually into the
legal arena.
For the United States, Israel is quite sanctimonious. How many time Israeli
war criminals who intently perpetrated white phosphorus against innocent
civilians of Gaza have been brought to justice? How many time the US sternly
vetoed a resolution issued by the UN that is destined to push peace process
forward for the sake of Israel? How many time Israel’s secret nuclear
arsenal has been probed nor even oppugned? The west and the States in
particular must develop the motivating factor by which they could devotedly
interrogate about what Israel does on that regard. If the States truly cares
about establishing genuine peace in the Middle East, it must quit arming
Israel and start negotiating the proposed departure deal. What a Jewish of
Russian background has got to do with Palestine? I think what I say makes
sense, quite so far. Your opinion Miriam?
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Mustafa,
Most people of my generation and previous generation who come from
Jewish backgrounds, experienced antisemitism at some time in their
lives. That is the reason that so many of us supported the creation of the
State of Israel.
Because of centuries of antisemitism and then the Nazis' persecution
of the Jews, they thought that a country, dedicated to Jewish people,
would protect them in the future. Not all Jews felt that way, but
after the second world war, many did. And we were kept ignorant of all
the details of what was done in order to create Israel. American Jews,
at least most of them, believed that by now, at least in the US,
anti-semitism had disappeared. But after the election of Donald Trump
to the Presidency, anti-semitism, which has been pretty much hidden for
decades here, is now apparent again.
But I don't think about it as religious discrimination. What I think
is that when people, any people, have been taught that their race or
their religion or their country is superior to everyone else's,
there's always a potential for them to turn on other people who are
different from them. If they are feeling frightened about their own
security, it's very easy for people in leadership positions to turn them
against other people.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Mostafa
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 1:40 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: my random thoughts versus yours
Miriam, it's so sad that you were disallowed from entering some places
for your religious background.
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Weather? When I was young, in New York, June was sunny and warm.
July was sunny and hot. August was muggy, sometimes rainy, sometimes
sunny, until the end when we would have one or two cooler sunny days
to remind us that autumn was on the way. It has been hot and muggy
for days now. We've had some rain and some thunder. Back in the old
days, thunder storms were reserved for the end of July and August.
Today is cloudy, hot and muggy, with rainstorms forecast for the
afternoon.
Car trips. We were working class city people with no real need for a
car because New York City had good, inexpensive, public
transportation. But when I was nine or ten years old, my father
bought a car. The first one was a Chevrolet. The color was crystal
green and my very fashion conscious mother just loved that color.
Each summer, we would travel by car to Montreal to visit my father's
family. It would be a slow, rambling trip up through New York State
with stops at various tourist attractions like Niagara Falls, and
back home through New England. There was a wonderful restaurant
called, The Springs, somewhere in Massachusetts, that we stumbled on
one year and where we made sure to return each year. Two of my
father's brothers had also emigrated from Canada to the US and one
year, one of them, with his wife and son, traveled back to Montreal
with us. No rambling that time, just one or two very long days of
riding in a car. But that was the year, I think, that after we
visited the family in Montreal, we traveled to the Mountains in
Quebec Province for vacation. But we couldn't find a hotel because no
one would allow Jews. One place said we could stay in a cabin, but we
weren't allowed in the dining room.
So we kept riding. And then we saw a beautiful hotel on an island in
the middle of a lake. We were sure that since it looked so fancy, we
would surely be excluded from there too, but we thought we'd try anyway.
Luckily, the owner was Jewish. We were allowed in and absolutely
loved our stay there.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2019 11:49 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
Hi Miriam...and anyone else still recovering from the Fourth of July.
Rereading is probably more related to temperate, as you say, rather
than age related. But I wonder how it is that you continue to
read...or at least skim my posts, since redundancy is my middle name.
I always figured that I just had a limited vocabulary. Not like our
friend in Egypt!
It's Saturday, July Sixth, and it's raining. All night it rained.
20%, the weather person said. Well Mister/Missus Weather person, we
got 20% five times! It reminds me of the many times we put the four
man surplus Army tent in the trunk of our old Hudson, called the
Family Bus, and tossed in some food and sleeping bedding, and headed
out on a sort of sunny July Fourth, looking to commune with Nature.
Sometimes we drove down the Coast into Oregon and sometimes we headed
up toward Bellingham. I liked it best when we turned the Family Bus
toward the East, and wound up at grandma and grandpa's farm in the
Spokane Valley. No sleeping on lumpy rocks at grandma's. Sure, the
beds were old and lumpy and sagged to the middle, but it was dry and
hot and beat the rain that was falling on the Coast.
It seemed to always rain over Fourth of July weekend. Come to think
of it, it always seemed to rain on Memorial Day weekend...and Labor
Day weekend, too. And it was always a fine, soaking rain. Mother
called it, "Oregon Mist". Then she would add, "It mist Oregon and
hit Washington".
Something I learned early on...well, a couple of things, was that
Four Man Army Surplus Tents are made to accommodate three undersized
soldiers. We had two fairly large adults and three varying sizes of
children. Crowded was a bad joke. It was impossible to crawl out
over sleeping bodies if you had to go out in the middle of the
night...and there was only one compelling reason anyone in their
right mind would crawl out of the safety of that four man tent, into
the wet, clammy, very dark night. And the other important thing I
learned about canvas tents and rain, Do Not Touch the Canvas when it
is raining. Mother and Dad told us this warning every time we headed
out...in the rain. You would think that the first time we disobeyed
them, we would never touch the tent's canvas roof. As soon as a
stray finger explored the tents surface, a drop of water would form.
And there was no way to put it back. It would draw more water into
itself and then drop...splat!
And another drop would form...
This foolishness always happened, but always over my sisters or myself.
Never, ever did anyone touch the tent above our parents.
They slept warm and dry while us three kids wiggled and squirmed
while trying to avoid the drips.
One time we found a beautiful valley in Western Oregon, accessible
only by a couple of ruts that went straight down the edge of a high
rock wall and a steep drop off on the other side. We pitched...or
actually we struggled the tent into an upright position and then
began slapping our arms and necks.
We saw no mosquitoes, but little welts began rising up on our exposed
skin.
"No See ums'!" my dad announced.
"You can't see them because all there is to them are teeth with wings".
After we tired of slapping, we hauled down the tent and crawled back
up that rutty road with the windows all rolled up. That was another
joy in summer camping trips. Old 1938 Hudson's were roomy, but air
conditioning was available only by cranking down the windows. One
trip through Roseburg, Oregon it was 105 degrees, with that hot sun
beating down on an all metal car. That trip we had five adults and
Mimi, our small family dog of many breeds.
Poor Mimi, she hated long trips, but had to go because she had bonded
with Mother. She always threw up within the first hour. Then she
was fine for the rest of the outing, no matter how many days we were
gone.
That is when Mimi became "Our dog", meaning my sister's and mine. We
got to clean the pukey newspaper out of her box and toss the stinking
mess into a waste barrel when we stopped for gas...or had to put
water in our boiling radiator...or add air to our soft tires.
You would think that such memories would guarantee that I would live
deep in the heart of a large city. But something about heading into
the unknown moved my heart and Soul...and moved us finally to our ten
acre horse farm in the wilds of the Great Olympic Peninsula...where
I've never met a tree I didn't like.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/6/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carl,
There are a lot of young people who read books over and over again.
It has nothing to do with age. I know because of what people write
on the DB Review list. And when I listen to these podcasts, I'm
hearing the same subjects discussed repeatedly, but sometimes with
new facts thrown into the mix. I just don't like hearing the same
words repeated. I guess it's temperament.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 9:46 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
Miriam,
It's one of those subtle signs that I'm getting long in the tooth.
I used to read or listen to information, or read a novel, and never
dream of wasting my time reading or listening to it again...ever!
But in recent years I find myself listening to the same articles or
the same speakers, and actually learning new information...again.
I'm sure that this relaxing of my mental process is not the only
indication of the aging process, but being blind, I never worry
about what would stare back at me from my mirror.
I do chuckle when Cathy and I return home after working with two
clients, and we can barely stagger into our recliners. When we
began back in 1995, we saw two clients in the morning and two
clients following lunch. And we worked five days a week in the
field, not just Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and we wrote our
reports in the late evening.
If I kept that sort of schedule today, I'd last about one day...and
no reports would ever be written.
By the way, I read A People's History of the United States, twice.
Carl Jarvis
On 7/5/19, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Again, another repeat. I've just learned from experience that on
holidays, Democracy Now repeats past performances. I may be weird,
but just like I don't reread books, I don't listen to repeat programs.
Happily, I had plenty of podcasts to listen to yesterday and if
there aren't enough today, I have more than enough books. I've just
unsubscribed from my second New York Times podcast. The first was
The Daily, because I didn't like the way they framed most of the
news stories they presented. It felt like a well planned propaganda
presentation. Now, I've deleted The Argument. The most left wing of
the three presenters, is, from my point of view, just slightly left
of the center of the Democratic Party. They're supposed to be
providing a right of center, center left, and leftist view of issues.
That's ridiculous.
There's a whole spectrum of viewpoints on the left that they're
omitting.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Carl Jarvis
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2019 9:50 AM
To: blind-democracy <blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [blind-democracy] Fwd: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on
Fascism, Nuclear Weapons, Climate Change, Julian Assange & More |
Daily Digest
07/05/2019
From the mind of our nation's leading elder statesman, to your ears.
An address from this past April, and an interview by Amy Goodman.
Carl Jarvis
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Democracy Now! <digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:06:40 +0000
Subject: An Hour with Noam Chomsky on Fascism, Nuclear Weapons,
Climate Change, Julian Assange & More | Daily Digest 07/05/2019
To: carjar82@xxxxxxxxx
Ousted Honduran President Zelaya: U.S.-Backed Coup Destabilized My
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