[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

  • From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
  • To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 23:25:59 -0400

I don't think we are discussing so much what is in the manual, but rather what should be in the manual. As far as I know you are doing it right. If the manual is changed, though, you might want to switch gears. 


On 3/19/2012 10:57 PM, Vivian Flores wrote:

Hi everyone,
I am totally confused with this thread about footnotes, maybe because I am a fairly new volunteer. But I don't see anywhere in the manual where it says to put 'begin footnote" and "end footnote".
My understanding, and this is how I've been doing it, is the footnotes are at the end of the page, with a square open bracket to denote the beginning of the footnote and the a square closed bracket to denote the end. In the event there are more than one footnote on the page, then the open square bracket is in front of the 1st footnote, and the closed square bracket is at the end of the last footnote. 

Am I missing something?

Vivian

At 10:06 PM 3/19/2012 -0400, you wrote:
I get what you're saying here, and in some books with only a few footnotes, writing those phrases is no big deal. For someone recording a book, it's no effort at all to say "begin footnote" and "end footnote." The problem is that, in Bookshare books, for a book with many footnotes, possibly hundreds, someone has to write those identifications out, every, single, time. In my opinion, it can amount to a lot of extra work that may have a small benefit to a few people. 

Evan
----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Loran Bailey <mailto:rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To 
    Treat/Include Footnote References

    If you are listening to a synthetic voice read the text it is not
    necessarily clear. These speech programs do not announce blank
    lines. They just keep reading. Anyway, I am not sure that the
    blank line is there before and after the page break. I think the
    reason that we add those blank lines is to protect any text or
    page numbers from being removed by the Bookshare automatic tools.
    Those tools will remove the blank lines. A synthetic voice does
    not announce page breaks either. Those are used for navigation,
    but as the machine reads along you hear only the page number and
    if you are listening to footnotes which are numbered anyway I
    think that page number right after one or more numbered
    paragraphs might confuse.

    On 3/19/2012 9:21 PM, Cindy wrote:

        I vote for not using the phrase end footnote. Actually,
        since they're at the end the page and thus would be followed
        by a page break and a new page they shouldn'tt be necessary.
        Even is the page number is at the end of the page and not at
        the top, there is a space between the last line of the
        footnote and the page number so it would be clear that the
footnote has ended. Cindy Join us in celebrating our 10 
        
<http://blog.bookshare.org/2012/03/11/join-bookshares-worldwide-10th-anniversary-celebration/>thAnniversary!
        
<http://blog.bookshare.org/2012/03/11/join-bookshares-worldwide-10th-anniversary-celebration/>



            *
                TinyURL.com/752cyrs *







        From: Sue Stevens <siss52@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:siss52@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 4:04 PM Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To 
        Treat/Include Footnote References

        Let's get rid of it!!!

        Sue S.
-----Original Message----- From: Mayrie ReNae Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 5:47 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To 
        Treat/Include Footnote References

        Hi Sue,

        That is what I thought. But because others spoke up loudly
for the words being placed there, that is what was recommended that we do. 

        Should we revisit this and opt not to have the "end
footnote" phrase? I personally would love to see that happen. 

        We do want the best solution for the most people.  And if
Bookshare didn't ever change, we wouldn't be where we are today. 

        If the topic of how to handle footnote citations at the end
of the page is revisited, please limit your comments to either of the 
        following statements:
Keep "end footnote" or "End footnote" is unnecessary since the closing bracket 
        denotes that.

        We don't want a huge overblown thread, simply a decision.

        Those of you who are gritting your teeth, please forgive
me. I too don't like when this kind of thing happens. We've revisited way too many decisions in the past. Let's keep this short and quick. 

        I'm in the process of reworking the Scanning and
Proofreading Manual to make it more concise, but still as inclusive as possible, as well as putting all of those separate linked pages into one document. If we're going to change this, now would be an optimal time to do it. 

        I'll watch through the next two or three days and decide
accordingly about what is thought to be most helpful to the most people, given the smallness of our population on this list compared to the entire 
        Bookshare patronage.

        Thanks for all of your tolerance and patience. We won't
revisit this again after this Friday. 

        Mayrie
-----Original Message----- From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sue Stevens Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References 

        It seems unnecessary, in my opinion, to put the words
footnote, and end footnote. If the foootnote is in brackets, the readers will know when they end and when they begin. 

        Sue S.
-----Original Message----- From: Mayrie ReNae Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:38 PM To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References 

        Hi Rik,

        Please, please don't move text from one page to another
unless it is to join a broken word between two pages to the page on which it begins. And please don't move footnote citations from one page to another when preparing books for Bookshare. This is an altering of the text that we 
        don't permit.

        Also, your handling of footnotes by labeling them is
absolutely fine and preferred. You should, however, please, include that text in brackets like this:
[Footnote: Hop On Pop by Dr. Seuss End footnote] 

        And finally, to give the best results for all readers please
handle inserting footnote numbers by placing them in brackets [] and surrounding those by spaces. Though this is not traditional, it has been stated as the way that works best for braille readers of Bookshare books who don't have access to superscripted numbers, and sighted readers using 
        the same books.

        Thanks for all of your intense attention to detail!  You
folks with the patience to tackle this kind of stuff are marvelous! I have to want to read a book so badly that I can taste it before I'll willingly attempt processing this stuff. 

        Rock on everyone!  We truly do have a devoted,
conscientious, and just plain wonderful group of volunteers! We really value all of you! 

        Mayrie
-----Original Message----- From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx <mailto:ohio1803@xxxxx> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References 

        Hello Kane,

        Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is
pretty dense, isn't it. I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff automatically. Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a Bookshare member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, then that is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements. 

        My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what
they think. I'm not exactly sure, officially. 

        I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with
footnotes and citations on the same page. Two ways. 

        In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the
chapter or section in which they are. But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number with the text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct. Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the content and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also something you can do with photograph captions. Caution. Anytime we do this type of thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or errors. 

        In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page,
and just make sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you have a number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a citation for it. I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. So I did not know about that. 

        But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not
think is in the manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket. For example, [footnote # 1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1]. Maybe this is wrong, and I should never do it again. 

        But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I
am reading that this is the citation to the above content. (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for 
        another reader .

        Also...

        In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that
the page ends in a complete sentence. Whether that means grabbing the end of a sentence from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, or vice versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I download and read. That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a broken up sentence. But of course a lot of times you just have to be paying enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence and go find the rest of it.
Sorry I got sort of long. But I hope that helps and makes some sense. 

        Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind
of need to know they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to fool with all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent collection for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all that stuff, too. 



        Thanks

        Rik James
******************************************************* To find out how to unsubscribe, please visit: http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp
-----Original Message----- From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ohio1803@xxxxx <mailto:ohio1803@xxxxx> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References 

        Hello Kane,

        Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is
pretty dense, isn't it. 

        I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff
automatically. Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the likelihood it might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing something that might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a Bookshare member who is reading this type of content and want the citation, then that is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements. 

        My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what
they think. I'm not exactly sure, officially. 

        I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with
footnotes and citations on the same page. Two ways. 

        In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the
chapter or section in which they are. But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation number with the text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct. Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the content and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also something you can do with photograph captions. Caution. Anytime we do this type of thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or errors. 

        In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page,
and just make sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you have a number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a citation for it. I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I should. So I did not know about that. 

        But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not
think is in the manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket. For example, [footnote # 1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1]. Maybe this is wrong, and I should never do it again. 

        But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I
am reading that this is the citation to the above content. (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for 
        another reader .

        Also...

        In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that
the page ends in a complete sentence. Whether that means grabbing the end of a sentence from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the page, or vice versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on the next page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare books I download and read. That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a broken up sentence. But of course a lot of times you just have to be paying enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence and go find the rest of it.
Sorry I got sort of long. But I hope that helps and makes some sense. 

        Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind
of need to know they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to fool with all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations is a better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent collection for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often skip all that stuff, too. 





        Thanks

        Rik James
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