[bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

  • From: Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx>
  • To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 21:53:26 -0400

If you are listening to a synthetic voice read the text it is not necessarily clear. These speech programs do not announce blank lines. They just keep reading. Anyway, I am not sure that the blank line is there before and after the page break. I think the reason that we add those blank lines is to protect any text or page numbers from being removed by the Bookshare automatic tools. Those tools will remove the blank lines. A synthetic voice does not announce page breaks either. Those are used for navigation, but as the machine reads along you hear only the page number and if you are listening to footnotes which are numbered anyway I think that page number right after one or more numbered paragraphs might confuse.


On 3/19/2012 9:21 PM, Cindy wrote:
I vote for not using the phrase end footnote. Actually, since they're at the end the page and thus would be followed by a page break and a new page they shouldn'tt be necessary. Even is the page number is at the end of the page and not at the top, there is a space between the last line of the footnote and the page number so it would be clear that the footnote has ended.
Cindy
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    *From:* Sue Stevens <siss52@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
    *To:* bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    *Sent:* Monday, March 19, 2012 4:04 PM
    *Subject:* [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To
    Treat/Include Footnote References

    Let's get rid of it!!!

    Sue S.


    -----Original Message----- From: Mayrie ReNae
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 5:47 PM
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: VOTE! Efficient Way To Treat/Include
    Footnote References

    Hi Sue,

    That is what I thought. But because others spoke up loudly for the
    words
    being placed there, that is what was recommended that we do.

    Should we revisit this and opt not to have the "end footnote"
    phrase?  I
    personally would love to see that happen.

    We do want the best solution for the most people.  And if
    Bookshare didn't
    ever change, we wouldn't be where we are today.

    If the topic of how to handle footnote citations at the end of the
    page is
    revisited, please limit your comments to either of the following
    statements:

    Keep "end footnote"
    or "End footnote" is unnecessary since the closing bracket denotes
    that.

    We don't want a huge overblown thread, simply a decision.

    Those of you who are gritting your teeth, please forgive me.  I
    too don't
    like when this kind of thing happens. We've revisited way too many
    decisions
    in the past. Let's keep this short and quick.

    I'm in the process of reworking the Scanning and Proofreading
    Manual to make
    it more concise, but still as inclusive as possible, as well as
    putting all
    of those separate linked pages into one document.  If we're going
    to change
    this, now would be an optimal time to do it.

    I'll watch through the next two or three days and decide
    accordingly about
    what is thought to be most helpful to the most people, given the
    smallness
    of our population on this list compared to the entire Bookshare
    patronage.

    Thanks for all of your tolerance and patience. We won't revisit
    this again
    after this Friday.

    Mayrie



    -----Original Message-----
    From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Sue Stevens
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:05 PM
    To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
    References

    It seems unnecessary, in my opinion, to put the words footnote,
    and end
    footnote.  If the foootnote is in brackets, the readers will know
    when they
    end and when they begin.

    Sue S.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mayrie ReNae
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:38 PM
    To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Cc: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote
    References

    Hi Rik,

    Please, please don't move text from one page to another unless it
    is to join
a broken word between two pages to the page on which it begins. And please
    don't move footnote citations from one page to another when
    preparing books
    for Bookshare.  This is an altering of the text that we don't permit.

    Also, your handling of footnotes by labeling them is absolutely
    fine and
    preferred.  You should, however, please, include that text in
    brackets like
    this:

    [Footnote: Hop On Pop by Dr. Seuss
    End footnote]

    And finally, to give the best results for all readers please handle
    inserting footnote numbers by placing them in brackets [] and
    surrounding
    those by spaces.  Though this is not traditional, it has been
    stated as the
    way that works best for braille readers of Bookshare books who
    don't have
    access to superscripted numbers, and sighted readers using the
    same books.

    Thanks for all of your intense attention to detail!  You folks
    with the
    patience to tackle this kind of stuff are marvelous!  I have to
    want to read
    a book so badly that I can taste it before I'll willingly attempt
    processing
    this stuff.

    Rock on everyone!  We truly do have a devoted, conscientious, and
    just plain
    wonderful group of volunteers!  We really value all of you!

    Mayrie



    -----Original Message-----
    From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of
    ohio1803@xxxxx <mailto:ohio1803@xxxxx>
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
    To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

    Hello Kane,

    Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty
    dense, isn't
    it.

    I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff
    automatically.
    Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the
    likelihood it
    might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing
    something that
    might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a
    Bookshare
    member who is reading this type of content and want the citation,
    then that
    is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.

    My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
    I'm not exactly sure, officially.

    I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with
    footnotes and
    citations on the same page.
    Two ways.

    In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the
    chapter or
    section in which they are.
    But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation
    number with the
    text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
    Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the
    content
    and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also
    something
    you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this
    type of
    thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
    errors.

    In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and
    just make
    sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you
    have a
    number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a
    citation for
    it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I
    should. So I
    did not know about that.

    But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think
    is in the
    manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example,
    [footnote #
    1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe
    this is
    wrong, and I should never do it again.

    But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am
    reading that
    this is the citation to the above content.
    (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
    altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another
    reader .

    Also...

    In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the
    page ends
    in a complete sentence.  Whether that means grabbing the end of a
    sentence
    from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the
    page, or vice
    versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on
    the next
    page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare
    books I
    download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
    broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to
    be paying
    enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence
    and go
    find the rest of it.

    Sorry I got sort of long.
    But I hope that helps and makes some sense.

    Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of
    need to know
    they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to
    fool with
    all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations
    is a
    better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent
    collection
    for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often
    skip all
    that stuff, too.



    Thanks

    Rik James

    *******************************************************
    To find out how to unsubscribe, please visit:
    http://www.kurzweiledu.com/support_listserv_signup.asp

    -----Original Message-----
    From: k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    [mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of
    ohio1803@xxxxx <mailto:ohio1803@xxxxx>
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 10:14 AM
    To: k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:k1000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: Efficient Way To Treat/Include Footnote References

    Hello Kane,

    Wow, as many as 20 citation notes on each page? That is pretty
    dense, isn't
    it.

    I sure do not know about setting up K-1000 to do this stuff
    automatically.
    Maybe. But I don't know. And even if so, it seems that the
    likelihood it
    might do it wrong is pretty likely, too. Thereby changing
    something that
    might negatively impact the citation. And if you do happen to be a
    Bookshare
    member who is reading this type of content and want the citation,
    then that
    is not good. Not to mention the publisher agreements.

    My 2 cents are maybe just for others to hear and see what they think.
    I'm not exactly sure, officially.

    I have the following ideas to tell you. I have scanned with
    footnotes and
    citations on the same page.
    Two ways.

    In one method, I have moved the citations, to the end of the
    chapter or
    section in which they are.
    But when I do, I try to make good and sure that the citation
    number with the
    text in the page is clear and that the citation is correct.
    Moving text in this way does allow the reader to move through the
    content
    and not be interrupted with the narrative so much. This is also
    something
    you can do with photograph captions.  Caution. Anytime we do this
    type of
    thing, however, great care to make sure you do it without omission or
    errors.

    In the other method, I leave the citations on the same page, and
    just make
    sure that the citation numbers are as stated in the manual. If you
    have a
    number right up beside the period, it is clear that there is a
    citation for
    it.  I have not yet put that number in a bracket. But maybe I
    should. So I
    did not know about that.

    But down below with the citation, I do this, which I do not think
    is in the
    manual. I put the word "footnote" in that bracket.  For example,
    [footnote #
    1: Alfred's Good Rule of Thumb, 1997. end footnote # 1].  Maybe
    this is
    wrong, and I should never do it again.

    But, for me, at least, this seems to clearly indicate as I am
    reading that
    this is the citation to the above content.
    (The insertion of the word "footnote," I mean.) But it is probably not
    altogether necessary. Maybe a bothersome thing to hear for another
    reader .

    Also...

    In either case, for me what I try to do is to make sure that the
    page ends
    in a complete sentence.  Whether that means grabbing the end of a
    sentence
    from the next page and pasting with the text at the end of the
    page, or vice
    versa, moving the incomplete sentence to paste with the rest on
    the next
    page. For me, this is the thing I most like to find in Bookshare
    books I
    download and read.  That I don't have to lose my train of thought on a
    broken up sentence.  But of course a lot of times you just have to
    be paying
    enough attention as you read, and notice you had a broken sentence
    and go
    find the rest of it.

    Sorry I got sort of long.
    But I hope that helps and makes some sense.

    Really, when tackling these types of books, I think you kind of
    need to know
    they will take this kind of detailed effort. If you do not want to
    fool with
    all of it, perhaps choosing books without so darned much citations
    is a
    better fit. Especially when we are putting them in this permanent
    collection
    for the members. If I do it for my own personal reading I often
    skip all
    that stuff, too.



    Thanks

    Rik James

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