Although I don't like the definitions much since they are "ground-oriented", I like the references to the visibility of the horizon - civil: horizon is clearly defined - nautical: horizon is indistinct. It's a continuum of course, but I will try to memorize what the horizon looks like when a target object goes invisible as a reference to warn how much time I have to play with. (I'm also going to be running Starry Night on the notebook in real time.) But usually I freak at the end of astron. twilight when first light shows and I have 20 left. Jack > > > The 10 degrees was a sort of arbitrary choice, chosen as a > time when M30 > would be several degrees above the horizon. I do remember > looking at M30 > in 2001 in very bright twilight. I could see scopes and cars > clearly at > the other end of the field. I would guess it was well past nautical > twilight when we saw it. > > In any event, I don't recall the distant mountains presenting > nearly as > much of a problem for seeing M30 as the horizon extinction and sky > brightness. > > Tom > -- See message header for info on list archives or unsubscribing, and please send personal replies to the author, not the list.