[asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

  • From: "Rosemary Huisman" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ("rosemary.huisman")
  • To: "asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2024 06:51:25 +0000

Another pennyworth:

Experiential structure

some

4,600

years

ago

Deictic

Numerative

Thing

Qualifier

determiner

numeral

noun

adverb



Logical structure

some 4,600

years

ago

Modifier

Head

Postmodifier

some

4,600





gamma

beta

alpha





A surprise to me to see "ago" labelled as "adverb" but I see this labelling is 
now conventional (used in various dictionaries) so I accept it above.

Etymology: ago - from a Middle English contraction of the past participle of 
the Old English strong verb agangan = "to come to pass", "to befall".



Note "some" realizes meanings of indefinite plural; compare:

a year ago

some years ago



Rosemary.

________________________________
From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf 
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, 7 February 2024 5:10 PM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only


Re further research...

Analyses like these are rough and ready....

[cid:image002.png@01DA59E6.C4C66F20]



Here’s a puzzle. Of these • units, which instantiates comparison, 
intensification or negation?

not

so

very

much

more

easily

•









•

•







•



•



•







•

•

•

•







Fester Bestertester



From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf 
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2024 at 1:59 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Heh heh!

IFG at 30 paces...



Interestingly IFG contains many instances with adverb ago/away as Head and nom 
gp as Premodifier but doesn't attempt to analyse them, even tho they are so 
common. Of the three types of adv gp Premodifiers listed, they realise 
[intensification] metaphorically (perhaps one of Whorf’s SAE cryptotypes). E.g.



[A close-up of a table  Description automatically generated]



This area of grammar is opening up for research e.g.

Martin, J. R., Doran, Y. J., & Zhang, D. (2021). Nominal group grammar: System 
and structure. Word, 67(3), 248-280.



best

Lester Scruggs



From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf 
of Dr ChRIS CLÉiRIGh <c.cleirigh@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2024 at 10:27 am
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Dear Scholars,



The following might be helpful to anyone who has difficulty in distinguishing 
nominal groups from adverbial groups.



Halliday & Matthiessen (2014: 419-22):

The adverbial group has an adverb as Head, which may or may not be accompanied 
by modifying elements. …

Premodifiers are grammatical items like not and rather and so; there is no 
lexical premodification in the adverbial group. …

The items serving as Premodifiers are adverbs belonging to one of three types – 
polarity (not), comparison (more, less; as, so) and intensification. …

Postmodification is of one type only, namely comparison.



[cid:ii_lsazkl5y0]



ChEeRS,

ChRIS





On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 at 08:25, David Rose 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Hi Rosemary

Is it the nom gp serving as Premodifier that makes them look like nom gps?

Here with just adverbs...

Long ago and so far away....

long

ago

and

so

far

away

Time





Place





adv gp





adv gp





•

•



•



•

adv

adv



adv

adv

adv



Here with nom gp as Premodifier

some

4,600

years

ago

Time







adv gp







•





•

nom gp







Num



Thing



•

•







PS

Can you give us some Old English clauses with Time in accusative and dative 
case?

Many thanks

David



From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
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<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 10:53 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Hi again - as in my first post - a circumstance of time. It's realized by the 
nominal group ("some 4,600 years ago"), as is usual for constituents of 
temporal meaning in the English clause. In Old English, such meanings were 
typically realized by a nominal group in the accusative case (or occasionally - 
confused through Latin?- by the dative). Perhaps because of their frequent use 
such realization without preposition for temporal meanings has persisted into 
Modern English, whereas other circumstantial meanings are usually realized by a 
prepositional phrase or adverbial group (as was already becoming established in 
Old English, ie pre- 1100).

Rosemary.















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Love these messages - what kind of constituent is 'some 4,600 years ago'? I've 
been debating this with one of my colleagues for a while now,

Cheers

Annabelle





Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)
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Department HDR Director





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________________________________

From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of David Rose <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 6:21 PM
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Agreed Shooshi... bit of indeterminacy here between Means and Place



From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 6:07 pm
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<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Thinking more about this – maybe the last circ isn’t causative. And in fact 
maybe that’s the point – construe this intransitively so they don’t even have 
to engage with whether anything caused the earth to form...



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<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Shoshana Dreyfus <shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:shooshi@xxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2024 at 5:46 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

This email contains suspicious characteristics and has originated from outside 
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________________________________

It’s an interesting way of expressing how things happened, isn’t it? I love 
these clauses – representing events as if things happened all by themselves (ie 
intransitively), though the causative bit is there, just relegated to the end 
of the clause in the circumstance, so yes need both transitivity AND ergativity 
to understand this one:



The earth

formed

some 4,600 years ago

from a vast cloud of gas and dust



Actor

Process: material

Circ: temp loc

Circ: manner/means

Medium

Process







And probably a look at the periodicity/thematic development of this text would 
be useful because maybe the writer wants to keep the Theme constant so has 
structured the clause in this way to do so.





From: asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf 
of Rosemary Huisman 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2024 at 8:23 pm
To: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only

Sensible thoughts, David.

A causative transitivity analysis might be more helpful: "Rocks" is Medium.



Table below is a bit misaligned!

Rosemary



IFG(2014) 5.2.3

...of ‘material’ clauses.1 The most general contrast is between (i) ‘creative’ 
clauses, where the Actor or Goal is construed as being brought into existence 
as the process unfolds, and (ii) ‘transformative’ ones, where a pre-existing 
Actor or Goal is construed as being transformed as theprocess unfolds: see 
Figure 5-10. Examples are given in Table 5-4.



Table 5-4 type of doing: ‘creative’/‘transformative’





Creative

Transformative

intransitive

transitive

intransitive

transitive

what happened

Whathappened? –Rocksformed.

Whathappened? –The pressureformed rocks

What happened –The rocksbroke (intosmall pieces)

What happened –The pressure broke therocks (intosmall

pieces).

Whathappened –He ran(away).

What happened

– Shechased him(away).

what happenedto X?

What happenedto

rocks? – Theyformed

Whathappened torocks? –*Thepressureformed hem.

Whathappened tothe rocks? –They broke(into smallpieces).

Whathappened tohe rocks? –The pressurebroke them(into smallpieces).

what did X do



What did thepressure

do? – It formedrocks.



What did thepressure do? – Itbroke the rocks(into pieces).

What did hedo? – He ran(away).

What did shedo?

– Shechased him(away).

what did X do toY?



What did thepressure do torocks? – *Itformed them.



What did thepressure do tothe rocks? – Itbroke them (intopieces)



What did she do to him? – She chasedhim (away).











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Subject: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Hello Rosemay and Annabelle,



If "formed" is a creative process, and "the earth" is what is created, it can't 
exist before the process takes place. So it can't be the actor of that process. 
My memory tells me that somewhere (but I haven't got a refrerence to hand) 
Halliday talks about an "effected" - the participant created by a process (as 
opposed to an "affected" - the participant altered by a process). To avoid any 
confusion, with my (non-anglophone) students I used to use the term "result". I 
would suggest that "the earth" is effected/result.



All the best,



David



________________________________

De: "Rosemary Huisman" 
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
À: asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:asflanet@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Envoyé: Lundi 5 Février 2024 07:47:08
Objet: [asflanet] Re: grammar analysis only



Hi Annabelle -   an effort:



The earth            Actor

formed                 Creative process, intransitive

some 4,600 years ago                             circumstance of Location: time

from a vast cloud of gas and dust.   circumstance of Manner



See IFG(2014)

Table 5-4 on Creative processes

Table 5.28 on Types of circumstantial element.



More cheers,

Rosemary (Huisman).



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Subject: [asflanet] grammar analysis only



Dear colleagues,



I'm keen to hear thoughts on the analysis of this clause:



The earth formed some 4,600 years ago from a vast cloud of gas and dust.



Cheers

Annabelle



Annabelle Lukin (she, her, hers)
Associate Professor Linguistics

Department HDR Director





Department of Linguistics
Level 5, 12 Second Way Room 507
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia

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Description. Singapore: 
Springer.<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/qLHMCmO5glupnZrjOSNvE8b?domain=link.springer.com>



Latest book chapter

Lukin, Annabelle and Butt, David. 2022. Neurosemiotics and ideology: a 
linguistic view. In García, Adolfo, and Ibañez, Águstin (eds) Routledge 
Handbook of Semiotics and the Brain. Routledge: New 
York.<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/_IXrCnx1jniXozY78h0sHSB?domain=routledge.com>



Latest journal article

Lukin, Annabelle, and Araújo e Castro, Rodrigo. 2022. Macquarie Laws of War 
Corpus (MQLWC): design, construction and use. International Journal for the 
Semiotics of Law. 35(5). 
2167-2186.<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/Tw3ECoV1kpfDzM0rOC2euiy?domain=link.springer.com>






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(2013)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/UrLDCxngwOfLAy31YsXKEhR?domain=axial-relations.blogspot.com/>

Review of Fawcett 
(2010)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/vGP4CyojxQT7MgRrxSzYCEN?domain=cardiff-grammar.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Martin, Matthiessen & Painter 
(2010)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/NVaaCzvkyVCG23AM5U2-FeM?domain=deployingfunctionalgrammar.blogspot.com/>

Review of Martin & Rose 
(2007)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/zJ-MCANpgjCZWgzNkSRytkC?domain=workingwithdiscourse.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Bateman 
(1998)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/J6i8CBNqjlCD41O7YCgwbWW?domain=master-bateman.blogspot.com.au/>

Review of Matthiessen 
(1995)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/jwV6CD1vlpToV1k54S9OSW7?domain=lexicogrammaticalcartography.blogspot.com/>

Review of Martin 
(1992)<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/VhOMCE8wmrtlDmN3ECjVl7j?domain=discourse-semantics.blogspot.com.au/>

Email List Posts as Pedagogical 
Tools<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/tXdXCGv0oyCBMmQ1vc4PbKl?domain=thoughts-that-cross-my-mind.blogspot.com.au/>

Appraisal Analyses of Email List 
Posts<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/LOvrCJyBrGfBYRDqNcoab2B?domain=attitude-in-sfl.blogspot.com/>

The Culture of the SFL 
Community<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/M1rvCK1DvKTDnlG2VCZOJHv?domain=whatliesbeneathsfl.blogspot.com/>

SFL 
Theory<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/TgoGCL7EwMfk1AZR6U6CTzM?domain=systemictheory.blogspot.com/>

Sample SFL 
Analyses<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/yAouCMwGxOt2ZgAqNsje7-L?domain=sys-func.blogspot.com.au/>

Answers to Analysis Questions on Email 
Lists<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/X6zbCNLJyQUZBAG04SDAWIs?domain=sysfling.blogspot.com.au/>

General SFL 
Matters<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/IQd0COMKzVTNKJypWcO_SNT?domain=thethoughtoccurs.blogspot.com.au/>

Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/PoNNCP7LAXf0xOkKpSMlsgb?domain=informingthoughts.blogspot.com.au/>

Conclusions from Intellectual Applications of SFL 
Theory<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/IbTtCQnMBZfXW8yk0hEOy7O?domain=meta-sfl-theory.blogspot.com/>

The Opposite of Social 
Media<https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/jmUPCROND2uGLJzv2U3UfB2?domain=mental-projection.blogspot.com/>

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